Launch HN: Nutrigene (YC W18) – Tailor-made liquid supplements using health data
I'm Van Duesterberg, and my cofounder is Min FitzGerald. We're the founders of Nutrigene (http://www.mynutrigene.com). We ship tailor-made liquid supplements based on your body composition and scientific research.
I'm a biophysicist and epigeneticist who spent more than 10 years studying how environmental factors influence the expression of our genes, focusing on the mechanism of metabolites (including vitamins) in both plants and humans. Min has spent more than 10 years as a personal trainer, health coach and behavioral scientist working in the food and consumer product goods space.
This all started because I wanted to be healthier and was frustrated with a lack of answers from our healthcare system, which only sees our data through a “survival” lens (oh you don’t need to be in urgent care or surgery now). I wanted to live beyond just surviving to truly thrive, by reducing chronic pain and fatigue and feeling more energetic. As a PhD in Biophysic and Epigenetics, my natural state to a frustrating, unsolved problem is to start conducting experiments and collecting data on myself. So I started getting involved in tracking and monitoring (using many Google sheets), through collecting blood panels, heart monitor data, and wearables for my activity and sleep. I’ve experimented with different remedies and diets to recover my health after a relatively difficult pregnancy. Eventually this led to the idea for a startup that would make it easy for people to take action based on their health data, by coming up with tailor-made products for the individual. We're beginning with high-quality liquid vitamins.
Why vitamins? Despite trying to eat as well as possible every day, I found it tough to do as a startup founder and new mom. And the data showed it’s not just me. Almost 90% of Americans are deficient in something or another, because we can’t eat perfectly every day, and recent research shows from NHANES and CDC shows that more Americans are not reaching their recommended daily allowances.
Why liquid supplements? The supplements industry is broken - there’s lack of quality, transparency and attention to purity. The majority of the vitamins and supplements you buy through Amazon, or Walgreens degrade, 50% after 6 months on shelves. Our goal is to send you the freshest, ready-made liquid supplements in our lab that are 1) unadulterated (no fillers such as starch or sugar), 2) pure liquid to maximize absorption (not breaking down any sort of tablet or softgel coating e.g. gelatin), and 3) an easier form factor to swallow than a pill. Plus, it’s easier to measure the purity of the supplements on mass spectrophotometry and HPLC in liquid form.
Why tailor-made? One of our advisors, Professor Bruce Hollis, has spent more than four decades studying Vitamin D deficiencies that show how we should be taking more Vitamin D than the RDA, in particular Vitamin D3, but off the shelf producers still use outdated information. The isoform of the vitamin matters, and we’ve incorporated hundreds of other papers across other vitamins, minerals and amino acids to provide the right unique mix to each person. We "tailor-make" it for you based on two factors. (1) Body composition. A 150lb man should not be getting the same dose as a 210lb man. Different fat and muscle composition determines whether fat soluble gets stored or how vitamins get metabolized. Most of this research is done in the nutritional sports space. (2) Genetics. The type of vitamin matters (isoform). Certain people who are more Vitamin D deficient should take Vitamin D3 which is one step away from metabolizing to its active form, 25-hydroxycholecalciferol, in our bodies. Another common vitamin that has been an issue for many women in particular is folic acid. A set of SNP mutations prevent anyone from properly methylating folic acid and hence many practitioners recommend taking methylfolate and same goes for Vitamin B12 (cobalamin), which its methyl form is methylcobalamin.
Degradation/oxidation is a big issue and we try to resolve that by making it just-in-time and capping it immediately after production. We also experiment with different formulations to prevent digestion of vitamins so they can be absorbed further down the line in your gut. No fillers, no starch, no sugar. Just vitamins.
High quality liquid vitamins are just the beginning. We want to see if vitamins do work using trackers, wearables, blood work, and even quantifying improvements in performances. Anecdotally, I’ve been seeing a drastic decrease in my base heart rate and more frequently see this low base heart rate during the day. My aortic heart stiffness has become less stiff giving me an age heart of 31 (I’m 33). These data are preliminary, but even blood work says I’m all good which isn’t indicative of whether I’m performing better or feeling healthier. We continue to find other ways to biohack ourselves but most importantly create a community of people who also want to take control of their health. And of course, my qualitative feedback is that I feel more energetic even with all the fatigue that comes with running a startup and being a first time mother.
Pardon my skepticism, but the whole "supplement" industry seems incredibly bogus.
Yes, there might be some benefits from little tweaks to our nutritional profile. But is this a priority compared to the massive benefits one gets from simply cutting out refined sugar, refined carbs, and other junk foods, and doing moderate exercise?
The idea of a supplement tailored to the individual seems to
a) vastly overestimate what we know about the body
b) be suspiciously aligned to marketing. It's easy to flatter people by saying they are unique individuals and need specialized tests and an expensive, specialized program to be healthy. Like, that the reason why you're unhealthy is because you've got this blood type and you can't eat beets on Tuesdays but you can correct it with this expensive supplement. And it doesn't have to do with your entire lifestyle.
I truly understand the skepticism especially when starting this company. That's why we are putting standards and QA processes to make sure our vitamins are pure and not filled with 99% fillers as most vitamins do.
We are targeting people who have taken a step towards reducing their refine sugar, carbs, and proper exercise. Our customers typically work out and eat healthy, but are finding that supplementation is working for them to reach their health goals. So they aren't replacing a meal, but adding on top of their current habits and diets to boost their energy, for example. But if you look are high-quality liquid vitamins on the market now, it's about on average $20 per bottle per vitamin that would last you about month. And you'll probably have to buy a micro-scale to properly weight out the right amount.
The body is super complex, and at the moment, the field of nutritional science is still making strides in becoming a more validated science. What we are doing is bridging this gap between research and consumers who are currently hacking and see if we as a community can provide more insights into nutritional science.
> not filled with 99% fillers
Personally, my doubts about the supplement industry aren't about the purity of the vitamin supplements, but the effectiveness of supplements in general.
You may enjoy reading Paul and Shou-Ching Jaminet's book _The Perfect Health Diet_. It includes an approachable survey of results for many supplements, as well as a considered take on why multivitamins seem less crucial than advertised.
One reason: metabolic interactions mean that proportionality matters, for example between A and D. Multivitamins are sometimes optimized for cost and pill size at the expense of this. Another reason is that people have varying baselines based on their diet, as well as how much micronutrient synthesis is happening in their gut. Because each vitamin (aka crucial micronutrient) has a dose-response curve, both too little or too much is bad; the book tries to chart out what is a good range for each and how you can achieve that through diet, lifestyle, and supplements. It is by no means a perfect book, but it is the best combination of approachable, credible, and well-researched information that I've come across.
The complexity of untangling these kinds of interactions is why nutrition research often seems to yield results that contradict earlier results. Biology is complex, but that does not mean progress in understanding it is impossible.
I can vouch for https://examine.com/ being a great resource on the effectiveness of supplements
I, too, have similar concerns. For people who are taking supplements now have mostly qualitative data to show efficacy of supplements in general. Some people go beyond taking the steps of blood panels, for example.
What we are doing is finding ways to quantify how supplements are working for people. And we strive for is finding those metrics to better understand how people can improve in their health.
The parent said nothing about purity of vitamins. That this is the first sentence of your response only seems to confirm his fears about marketing hype. I'm disappointed to see a legitimate PhD used for pseudo scientific snake oil sales.
It's also totally unclear what harm is caused by "fillers" such that their presence is a concern. Or what research backs up the improvement of personalizing vitamin dosages over taking a multi-vitamin - would love to see that study.
The first google search about the condition related to folate methylation took me to some pseudo-scientific naturopathic website that amongst other claims, made this one "it turns out that many of us (estimated at 45%) have at least one [mutation in this gene]". That this source / website is the first thing I find when searching for what you mention does not look good. Let's further break down this claim: it's unclear that having a mutation means that there is any actual loss in function. The statement implies it. But I can't find any evidence, anywhere, that this is true. I also can't find any evidence on the NIH website (https://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/gene/MTHFR#conditions) about the condition you mention or what it's prevalence might actually be - everything listed there is a pretty serious disease and you would know it if you had one of those conditions.
I'm honestly somewhat disgusted that YC chose to accept such a morally and scientifically terrible product to peddle. Even if selling bogus supplements to uninformed consumers is a good business.
Interesting you suggest in this post that reducing carbs is a step towards a healthier diet.
A whole food plant based diet is mostly carbs and is generally regarded as the healthiest diet available.
The field of nutritional science is as valid as any and saying it ia becoming more validated science suggests to me you havent been exposed to the thousands of high quality studies being published every year. This is a huge red card for someone who is proposing to intervene with peoples health.
Im sorry to be skeptical but there are way too many alarm bells associated with this venture, most too small to mention individually but the pattern adds up.
For anyone looking for more legitimate bridge between the science and us "consumers" I recommend http://nutrition facts.org/
Despite the official-sounding name, nutritionfacts.org is run by Dr. Michael Greger, a passionate advocate of veganism and animal rights. This doesn't mean it should be dismissed, but it is at its root a political project — it is by no means neutral or objective with regards to the science.
The 200+ volunteers working with Dr Gregor have never even mentioned animal rights as far as I remember and Ive reviewed personally most of what they have published.
It is as unpolitical as you can get - a volunteer group doing an ongoing literature review of nutrition papers and publishing their condensed findings in video and constantly updated book form.
So yes it does aim to be objective with regards to science, thats the whole point. Which you would know if you spent more than 5 minutes researching before blessing the world with your knowledge.
It doesn’t take more than five minutes to realize that nutritionfacts.org is purely one-sided. You can’t find a SINGLE piece of science on there that disagrees with vegan orthodoxy.
What is the likelihood that this is the result of an evenhanded look at a broad range of scientific literature, vs. a careful cherry-picking of evidence to support a predetermined conclusion?
Here’s a trick: if you’re the only person who thinks a complex science is clear cut and obvious, maybe you’re the one who is missing something.
I appreciate your skepticism as there should be more of it when addressing these type of health topics. I wish there was more of this type of healthy discussions in the place of healthcare.
But back to the topic, my mistake for generalizing the statements above. For some who need to reduce or should I say "monitor" their carb intake, such as myself, I had to drastically reduce my carb intake due to diabetes. And sugars are particularly a huge culprit for this problem, but I have to significantly reduce consuming potatoes, rice, pasta, even healthy fruits. So for many in these categories reducing their carbs is necessary.
The space of nutritional science does contain lots of research but some are very limiting and over simplified. An example, I've seen studies of arginine consumption and how that effects the aortic heart stiffness. Some of the studies only lasted for 120 minutes and concluded that there weren't any effects. But many many longitudinal clinical trials have shown improvement in heart health through decrease in heart stiffness. For us, we still have to comb through all the papers of published studies and make sure the conclusions made are just an oversimplification of lack of rigor in those studies.
But yes, we want to make the data and information more transparent as well. Thank you for recommending that site. We've definitely checked it out but will check it out again.
(1) Your 10x claim is obvious bullshit. Where is your research showing a measurable health improvement that is 10x greater?
(2) Where is your peer reviewed research demonstrating that your system leads to measurable health improvements?
Your company, like virtually every supplement company, is a scam that plays on the fears and ignorance of its customers. You have an obvious conflict of interest in that you both recommend and sale vitamins. At minimum, to be an ethical health care provider, you should either be a manufacturer of vitamins or a service that recommends them.
> Spare us the sanctimony. You're a con artist and you know it
Personal attacks are not allowed on Hacker News. We ban accounts that do this, regardless of whom you're attacking, so please don't do it again.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
His or her language wasnt great, but they made a very specific, falsifiable claim.
A confidence trickster or con artist is a very specific type of endeavor and it should absolutely be ruled out that this isn't what's going on here.
Personally im on the fence but it is most certainly possible that this is the truth here and discourse on this should be encouraged.
Great claims (as we have here) require great evidence (not supplied) and one possible explanation is that the founder is using his or her genuine credentials in a confidence trickster way.
Its a fine line but the core of this discussion is in fact about the legitimacy of this individual presenting as an expert, so you may want to ease off in this case regarding your interpretation of this being a 'personal attack'.
It's perfectly possible to raise relevant concerns without being uncivil. Better, in fact, because then one isn't discrediting them with bad behavior.
Thanks for your feedback.
(1) Our 10x claim is on efficacy of absorption as for liquids typically easier to absorb than tablets or soft gels. I will submit that article soon. Apologize for not being clear.
(2) As for measurable health improvements we are collecting those data through our customers and research done with our advisors at the moment. We have some preliminary results but are currently under review. Happy to share that once it is published.
We would love to get into vitamin manufacturing as we do see this epidemic of not validating purity of vitamins happening further down the line. We are partnering with third parties to help us provide certificate of analysis for the supplements we purchase from our manufacturers.
Your website claims that the "elixirs" are made in San-Francisco but you fail to mention the origin of the vitamins. Anyone can go on Alibaba and buy this stuff in bulk ship it to California and claim that it was, made "unique to you in our SF lab".
Everything about this product sets off red flags; no mention of sourcing, zero certificates of analysis and no peer reviewed research.
The "science" section only covers 'freshness' and 'personalization'.
This seems like a stat padding exercise for YC.
Thanks for your feedback. We do the formulations in SF, and we have COAs for our distributors. Typically supplement companies don't tell you who their distributors actually are. Our filter for distributors and manufacturers are purity levels - and you're right, this information is currently not on our site. We've been working hard on meeting customer needs directly as priority first, but we've realized how much communication is lacking. Thanks for bringing attention to what information you'd like to see on our site.
What do you mean by "typically" easier to absorb?
Do you have any scientific research to back up that claim?
(Edit: deleted)
I thought name calling wasn't allowed, where's the warning for this user?
My intent isn't name calling. I saw treis's comment and thought it fitting not in the literal terms, but in spirit: that you can communicate issues without personal attacks.
I still agree with that comment and stand by the message I wanted to send, but I see how my reply fosters a culture of attacks, so I'm removing it.
(To treis, if you didn't see it - it was a link to a comment you once made)
I think scam artist is qualitatively different than moron.
nutrition facts is a vegan propaganda site disguised as a science based, political independent site.
https://www.thatnerdysciencegirl.com/2015/11/13/the-case-aga...
https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/death-as-a-foodborne-illnes...
https://www.reddit.com/r/nutrition/comments/6b1ik6/seriously...
https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/comments/3uiriu/how_biased_is...
It sounds like you are admitting that you're filling a gap in the market: specifically, "body hackers" who will put anything in their bodies as long as it sounds edgy and new. And that you don't have any research to back any of this up?
You're doing the usual handwavey thing, which is to say that you know that it's not a good product today, but somehow you're going to take the profits from selling the unproven thing today, and do something better later, maybe...?
That might be borderline acceptable if you're doing a software startup but sounds horribly cavalier for someone pushing a health product.
Soylent...?
> That's why we are putting standards and QA processes to make sure our vitamins are pure and not filled with 99% fillers as most vitamins do.
That non sequitur of a response doesn't do much to allay the concerns you're responding to.
I just realize that after responding again (see above).
This is verbalistic BS.
Please don't be nasty. If you disagree with OP's idea, that's great. Just don't call OP or the idea BS. Let the market decide--it's ultimately smarter than you (or me).
That's not really true. Snake oil salesman was an actual profession until government regulation.
Either way, calling OP and the idea BS is part of how the market decides.
Big difference between tinkering with an idea vs. tinkering with someone's bodily health, with no skin in the game.
You mean the same market the decided Justin Bieber is a good musician? The same market that allowed Hillary and Trump to pass the primaries?
Please don't post off-topic flamebait to HN threads.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
grzm is reposting a comment, taken out of context, from my comment history. But I'll respond anyway: the market didn't necessarily decide that Bieber is a good musician, only that he provides "value," whatever that may be--behavior, personality, music, sex appeal, etc. As for for Hillary and Trump, yep, same market ;).
Decided? Or were led to "decide"?
Which part? So I can help be more clear.
> I truly understand the skepticism especially when starting this company. That's why we are putting standards and QA processes to make sure our vitamins are pure and not filled with 99% fillers as most vitamins do.
The skepticism isn’t the purity of the vitamins, it’s that they work at all (and safely).
> We are targeting people who have taken a step towards reducing their refine sugar, carbs, and proper exercise.
Who you’re targeting isn’t relevant to the raised concern.
> Our customers typically work out and eat healthy, but are finding that supplementation is working for them to reach their health goals.
Please provide evidence that “supplementation is working for them.”
> But if you look are high-quality liquid vitamins on the market now, it's about on average $20 per bottle per vitamin that would last you about month. And you'll probably have to buy a micro-scale to properly weight out the right amount.
Steering the question away from raised concern, which is whether or not supplements are beneficial at all, not how much they cost.
> The body is super complex, and at the moment, the field of nutritional science is still making strides in becoming a more validated science.
Read: there’s no rigorous evidence to show that supplements are beneficial, but we’re pushing them anyway.
> What we are doing is bridging this gap between research and consumers who are currently hacking and see if we as a community can provide more insights into nutritional science.
Read: There’s a community of body hackers who are currently spending huge (yuge) amounts of money for supplements and we want to get in on the juicy profits.
Detailed, reasonable questions with a surprising lack of answers.
I've worked with people who have started companies in this space and raised a lot of money, and also with lawyers who have represented some of the most prominent companies in this space.
I'd be cautious around even "anecdotal" statements around decreasing base heart rate and aortic stiffness. FDA takes these kinds of claims very seriously, and it costs a LOT of money to get the kind of data FDA requires to back these claims up. Essentially every company that has tried marketing "non drugs" to improve clinical outcomes without complying with regulations and generating rigorous data has been shut down, either temporarily or permanently
Greatly appreciate the caution. Yes, we are working doctors who are making these claims with supplements and their device. However, I will tread carefully on my anecdotal statements as well.
In the US there is a very big difference between a doctor making a recommendation to a patient and a company marketing a product, even if the company is run by doctors.
As you know doctors can make suggestions based on their medical expertise, even for non FDA approved drugs, and in many cases malpractice is the mechanism by which "bad advice" is regulated
Companies are not doctors and do not have that same sort of leeway when giving medical advice. If patients complain, or if your company gets to the point where it is marketing drugs (even if you call them supplements) based on unfounded claims and it seems like it can cause reasonable public health concern, FDA can shut you down overnight
plus if you get some visibility and doctors get the sense you are marketing overly aggressively and making unsubstantiated claims that could hurt patients, they can be quite vocal
you probably know this but based on your answer i couldnt tell. dont mean to be overly critical, but ive seen many companies fail because they are glib re this issue, and when this happens it reflects poorly on the whole sector
not a lawyer or doctor, just an observer
Thanks for the feedback, yes, we've taken the feedback on this and are careful about claims and marketing.
Wow, I played around with this more. An active 6' 195 lb man gets the exact same recommendation as 5' 50,000 lb (Yes, fifty thousand pound) woman.
You're not actually doing any analysis or customization are you?
Nope, it posts the answers to the survey to:
https://vp9eae2gvh.execute-api.us-west-1.amazonaws.com/test/...
which responds:
"Hello from Lambda"
At which point it shows me my "recommended" packages which are supposedly "tailored to my body". Picking one of those sends me to a payment screen.
This isn't shady or false advertising. This is an out and out scam.
This is pretty mindblowing for a YC company, pretty damaging to their brand as well being associated with this type of snake-oil product.
Reminds me of the days when facebook peddled vitamins on their site when no one else was willing to do business with them. Not the best PR for YC or the company. I would imagine the thread gets nuked.
Muh female co-founders.
We definitely notice this feature is lacking in the customer flow. We have a dosage generator in our backend that our customer received but we will push that feature to be more transparent in our metabolic assessment.
Thanks treis. We currently do this offline in our lab, and it's not viewable directly online after the questionnaire just yet. Our customers have been informed of their specific dosage customization and given us feedback that it might be nice to see it online too (though this wasn't the highest need for them). For your specific question - we can't look up your submission data without an identifiable email address you've signed with, but baselining only with the height and weight provided, the 195lb man should be taking 3900 IU of Vitamin D3 vs. 1,000,000 IU of vitamin D3 for the 50,000lb woman, for example. We tailor the dosages across the other vitamins, minerals, and supplements as well.
By the way, I certainly hope that you are aware that there is a maximum safe dosage of vitamin D:
Children age 9 years and older, adults, and pregnant and breast-feeding women who take more than 4,000 IU a day of vitamin D might experience
Nausea Vomiting Poor appetite Constipation Weakness Weight loss Confusion Disorientation Heart rhythm problems Kidney damage
https://www.mayoclinic.org/drugs-supplements-vitamin-d/art-2...
Recommending 3900 IU for a 195 lb man is alarmingly close to the level that can cause kidney damage and heart issues. If your model spits out 1,000,000 for a 50,000 lb woman, it probably will go over 4,000 given the right parameters.
Hi treis, we're working with one of the world's experts on Vitamin D and using clinical research based on studies conducted on populations over four decades. See one of his publications specifically looking at breast-feeding women and safe <4000 IU figures. http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2015/09/...
Regarding the 1,000,000 Vitamin D response: typically our human customers are not 50,000lbs (a blue whale is typically 40,000lbs). However, it's probably not that unforeseeable if a blue whale has higher requirements for Vitamin D than an average human that's 195lbs. To your point though, we are careful that we do not go grossly over Recommended Daily Allowances, and our formulations reflect clinical research.
Is changing dosage based on body size the only customization you are doing?
No it is not, but that's why I mentioned based on the limited data and not being able to match back with all of your information we can only provide a rough estimation. With your entire metabolic assessment and your genetics information we determine more about your metabolic inefficiencies and whether you need a particular isoform of vitamin, for example.
Not sure where you got that feature since that feature is not yet available online. We can generate a list of dosages that customized base on your body composition.
I click on the big "START NOW" button under the text that says "Optimized formulations tailored to your body composition that’s 10X more effective." That process ends up with "recommended" packages I can purchase.
Thanks! When customers receive their package, they are informed of their dosages across the supplements. We've been getting requests to include an online feature of your supplement dosages being viewed - and are trying to get it out directly on our site ASAP.
Quite interesting business idea. I would suggest a few changes to the page though: make it clear you only accept US customers before we waste time figuring it out in the end of the purchase, your dietary restrictions checkboxes have possibly their ID not an user-friendly name (i.e. lower cased with underscores), I did not understand which package I should purchase at the end (maybe a simple comparison or an actual practical reason instead of a business description? I would guess I wanted all of them? or not?). Congrats for the launch! This is a sensitive niche but I suppose it has a lot of potential :-)
Thank you for your feedback and we are always trying to iterate on our ability to be more transparent with our customers.
What we are attempting to do in the next few weeks is:
1) Adding a feature that includes comparisons in dosages with our service versus standard multi-vitamin pills.
2) And yes to the US only customers. Do you suggest we put it on the home page? That would be easy to do.
I sort of guessed about it being US-only when I saw inches and lbs so perhaps in that same page should be okay :-) I hope I can try it someday!
We are looking to expand into other countries this coming year in particular possibly Canada and Australia. Where are you hoping for us to ship?
There are lots of regulatory limitations in making sure each supplement is allowed for consumption in each country (let alone each state). So we are making sure we have all the precautions met before doing something worldwide.
Why not ship worldwide all at once?
The US is notoriously unregulated. Why bother in countries with strong consumer protection and health claim laws? Ride the wave of corruption while it's still possible. Its not going to go anywhere under Trump.
iHerb ships to over 150 countries, somehow. As well as many online stores that ship almost everywhere.
I am not sure what kind of problem there can be in shipping supplements, which are unregulated by definition.
Also, I should not need to fill all the survey forms all over again if I wanna give it another try, I guess?
You shouldn't need to if you already have. BUT if you find any changes in your weight and diet, for example, we do recommend filling out the assessment again for now. Near the end of the year, we are creating more a user dashboard, so that users can just update this type of information rather than completely filling out the same form again.
vancanwin, this is a cool premium service and product. i would be more inclined to pay the premium price if the first step was getting blood/bone/gut work done. ordering the elixir based on a 10-second form didn't seem much better than me buying recommended vitamins at the store. it's not very custom is it!
it is the data about myself that i really struggle with.
i have health insurance and a doctor, but i don't know what tests to have done or what to do with that information afterwards. i don't even know if i can have these tests done simply by asking?!
does my blood show a deficiency in some vitamin or mineral? do i need to take calcium? is my gut doing great things for my mind and body?
i would pay premium price to figure out the above questions, and would be more likely to pay for a truly customized treatment.
ps - it's a lot of trust required to enter in birthday and personal information for a form. whereas i'd happily take a test with my doctor and then pay for a consultation with a certified medical specialist who puts my results in context of a solution - perhaps needing my weight and age and gender to do that. i it's hard to have that kind of trust with a new startup. in fact it made me trust y'all less to have to enter that info up front just to buy a standard mix of vitamins...
Thanks for the feedback, diNObot. You've provided us good feedback to include the communication of what's included in our new 3-month program that includes blood and other lab work on top of the genetics. All of your information is kept confidential to facilitate this customized program.
If you're a customer sending anything besides mailed cash or cryptocurrencies for any private service, it has the potential to not be private one day.
Supplements feel like one small step above homeopathy
I've interacted with hundreds of elite level athletes who are always looking for an edge. These athletes do not depend on supplements and many avoid them. I would expect these athletes to be on the cutting edge and results to trickle over to 'normal' people. If these athletes who are more in-tune with their bodies than most are avoiding supplements than am not seeing a lot of upside for the average person. If you are deficient or have a medical condition then sure, but the focus should be on healthy eating. Supplements are not going make up for eating poorly and likely just results in expensive urine or placebo effect for most people.
It's hard to debate since everyone is using anecdotal evidence.
Hi Kayhi, thanks. You're right, the evidence, even clinical research that does exist is drowned out in the noise of anecdotal evidence. But there is clinical evidence showing effectiveness in supplementation (see some at http://www.mynutrigene.com/the_science)
We've been frustrated too - because there weren't other supplement companies that were trying to help customers modify dosages, or find out what works for them using a scientific approach. We're not saying we have all of the answers, but that we will discover new findings with you, that can help many more people and fills a gap that the medical system and current off-the-shelf solutions aren't providing.
I also agree with you that elite level athletes typically would use minimal or no supplementation. However, when we interviewed pro athletes, they are also backed by a team of nutritionists, dieticians and coaches that enables them to closely monitor and implement a very strict diet and exercise routine that everyday busy people find impossible to do. We aren't saying everyone needs supplementation, but since 9 out of 10 Americans are deficient according to the National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey (NHANES) under the Center for Disease and Control (CDC), it might be you, and to investigate for yourself. Our customers currently are seeking us for that support as a better alternative than current off-the-shelf solutions.
Can you link me to the reference that states people should use supplements who have a normal diet?
My point was that athletes are using their bodies in the extreme do not require supplements.
Discovering new findings with me is usually fine, but am nervous when it involves my health.
I agree with you, kayhi. This is our health, and we want to make it so that everyone in the world not only top-tier athletes are never deficient.
Sure, here's a CDC report: https://www.cdc.gov/nutritionreport/pdf/Nutrition_Book_compl... as well as this secondary study that summarizes some of the findings https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4822995/.
Thanks, but these references are reporting demographic and biochemical indicators. They do not state that people with a normal diet need supplementation.
Summary reference:
"The Nutrition Report has limitations. First, it does not cover information beyond biochemical indicators, such as dietary intake, supplement usage, hematologic measurements, and anthropometric body measurements, which are generally used together with the biomarker information to comprehensively assess nutritional status."
"forfeit insight into the association between variables unique to each individual biomarker"
Hi Kayhi, quickly, what do you define people with normal diet? There is an array of different diet and different health spectrum that doesn't constitute a visit to the doctor or even have the thought of getting a blood panel. As mentioned above, the scientific rigor for each supplement efficacy on some human clinical trials are sometimes over-simplification of findings from very short trials that don't look into more longitudinal studies. And this is just the non-healthy populations. Most clinical trials that do work on healthy populations tend to focus on athletes. We are still looking more studies that focus on "average" populations that aren't necessarily unhealthy and pro athlete population.
In the end, what we are doing is using data to see if controlling for purity in supplementation improves people's definition of health. If we can control parameters (purity, vitamin active form, etc.), can we see those changes quantitatively rather than qualitatively.
Thanks for your inquiry.
Controlling for purity should not be a major problem and should be a baseline for being in the food business. Lifestyle (diet, sleep, stress, alcohol consumption, disease, genetics, etc.) will far outweigh the variable of supplement purity.
I hope you find more studies, but the variables such as those mentioned above will make it very difficult to determine causation.
As a vegan I take B12 (liquid) supplement which costs a few dollars and is available anywhere.
Vit D supplementation can be useful for some people but only really needs to be a relatively blunt instrument in terms of dosage.
Thiamine is important especially for people who drink alcohol, but it is widely supplemented in food.
Im interested in the subject and supportive of any effort to improve peoples health before problems occur, but in a market which is 99% bullshit, misinformation and basically outright fraud, the bar is pretty high to claim to be legit and not be associated with all the scammers. Unfortunately the publicly available information and this post about this company don't even come close.
Good luck but you will need to significantly up your game to come across as legitimate and actually useful.
This is the first time in a while ive questioned the selction of a YC company.
Thanks for you candidness. We definitely do realize that we need more content on our website about our process and we are looking for more feedback.
It sounds like what you're looking for is more scientific research to back our claims.
As a PhD myself, it's been hard to not get tangled in the technical details and learn how to convey a simply but very informative information the public.
As for thiamine available in food, my PhD was studying thiamine production in plants and it's heavily regulated depending on what's available in the environment. Even then I've seen people thiamine deficiency in developed countries, which is sad really because people just don't eat properly.
And this is becoming more common with Americans not meeting their RDA (see references below)
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2937576/
same recommendations whether I put in my actual weight or 350 lbs.
combine the outright lie of customization with the baseless claims (10X?) and I have no choice but to be extremely disappointed in the ethical choices of you and (sadly) ycombinator for associating themselves with you.
The supplement industry is mostly scams, silicon valley is supposed to do things "differently". Obviously that is not the case here. Same shit business model making money off of ignorant people, different wrapper.
Hi mmmchipotle, sorry for the misunderstanding here. We currently don't show the degree of customizations online, but do this offline in our lab, so it's not viewable directly online after the questionnaire is filled out just yet. We wanted to take the extra step to get you a fully tailored physical product (which includes insert sheets showing the dosage levels), and the online materials aren't yet showing how much we do tailor or the better absorbed, the higher bioavailability liquid supplements we've been shipping.
The people who can biohack are the ones who actually suffer from malnutrition the least. I love the experience your team brings to the table -- it is very well needed in such a shitty industry -- but please please please consider making this affordable from the get-go. Malnutrition is a self-reinforcing problem that hurts the United States' health care safety net in so many ways (the cost is obviously the biggest hot-button issue, which is why it's nearly impossible to change anything). On top of that, it's estimated there will be more 1099 contractors in the next 10 years than ever before -- meaning there will be more people who voluntarily choose to forgo health insurance than ever before. Until health care costs go down, decentralizing preventative care is needed more than ever. If you make this affordable from the get-go, you have an opportunity to make a real impact on those who are actually malnourished and have no practical way to fix that.
See price info without filling out the forms: http://www.mynutrigene.com/products
I kind of like this idea, but it seems so half-baked. Why not wait a while to get the product working before posting here?
Thanks jdpedrie, our line of reasoning was to get a better product than what's there on the market today out first and learn what customers really needed as we went along. We thought we would build a better product that way. But if we did that, we may have created a bloated solution with features people don't ultimately find as useful. We know that we're just at the start of the process and take all customer feedback to heart.
Nice idea, but... Do you realise that if you do succeed, sooner or later your customers' health data will be owned by some big corp like Google and very likely misused/abused?
Do you have any plans about protecting them?
Our vision is to keep your data as your personal insights. My data is on there as well, so I hope this doesn't end up in the wrong hands.
What we are doing now is further developing our encryption and HIPAA compliance service to make sure your data at least stays secure.
How do you measure the gene-expression effects of your supplements? Can you track certain disease causing genes and see how they're impacted by your supplements?
To your first question, that was done on PhD work in human cell lines and plants. What you observe is the production of the active metabolite (E.g. thiamine converted into thiamine pyrophosphate) or breakdown of the metabolite.
We are looking into that research right now with our advisors. This is definitely an ongoing research topic especially related to inflammatory diseases and cancer. We aren't making any of those claims yet since it's still hard to interpret these studies in human cell lines and small population in some of the clinical trials (E.g. the study that saw increased efficacy of a cancer drug with vitmin c). We are conducting further investigation and research with PIs that are doing this type of work. But for now, we do not have a consumer product that can measure epigenetic changes dynamically.
Where do you list the vitamins that are included in the vial? Also, do you take into account genetic differences like MTHFR or vitamin absorption issues?
First, we include the vitamins base on a per package basis and that feature pops up after you've taken the metabolic assessment.
Second, yes that's the first genetic differences we are accounting for. My cofounder and I are both female founders with a set of MTHFR SNPs and have had issues with proper methylation of folic acid and even cobalamin. We currently include methylated cobalamin, but have had issues finding manufacturers that provide methylfolate (and not other derivatives such as methyltetrahydrofolic acid).
Please correct original post to link to https://www.mynutrigene.com as otherwise, you're redirecting folks to the non-https version which will probably put off at least a subset of this audience for security reasons ( actually , given the type of info you're collecting, all should use https).
Yes thank you. Will edit it now.
The 'how it works' section of your landing page is broken on iOS safari.
This looks like a good product and one that I will consider trying when I have more disposable income. I would be more likely to use it if it included blood tests for vitamin deficiencies before coming up with a custom formulation. Is there a reason you aren't doing that?
We are launching that feature through our genetics option in our metabolic assessment as of recent. What we are having more people do is get a blood panel done before and after our product. Please contact us at support@mynutrigene.com to discuss more about it as a service.
We don't provide the test directly, but we recommend blood panels taken through life extensions.
Just a minor pedantic FYI...
The last answer in your FAQ starts with 'yes' but the question is not a yes or no question.
Thanks for the feedback!
The game has been changed. Society will look back at the 'health isle' in a drugstore and wonder how anyone navigated through a sea of labels and white lies.
The next step is to hook up with HealthKit and monitor my activity and use to inform what to send me next month.
That is the vision - using data to track changes in health rather human psychology.
What would be the difference between your formulations and Liposomal vitamins for example? In terms of bioavailability? And surely 'freshness' is more than just rapid packaging? It also involves things like temperature etc?
Yes! Absolutely and other factors from oxygen radicals to light exposure.
To address the difference between our formulation with liposomal vitamins, the difference is in the formulation of the vitamins working with each other not in the encapsulation. For example, most of packages includes Vitamin D3, calcium, and Vitamin K because calcium and vitamin K helps increase the uptake of Vitamin D3 through interactions with vitamin d receptor.
Ideally, we want to find manufacturers that produces liposomal vitamins, but haven't found any that doesn't use other fillers such as starch and sugar as well. Also not all supplements require an encapsulation process. The rate of vitamin C degradation is the fastest, hence why most vitamin c on the market is sold with liposomal encapsulation.
When I filled out the form, I noticed there were a few "free response" fields - do they factor into the recommendations? What's done with the free-response answers?
We are looking to improve our assessments by getting a sense what other lifestyle factors to include. A lot of customers and people going through the site has been helping us add other factors such as smoking, for example.
site's not having TLS - given info it's collecting - and Chrome's upcoming lockdown - you probably need to fix this asap.
Yup totally working on it now. We are working through Cloudflare to setup the certificates. Thanks!
I would get rid of the "10x more effective" claim. Effective at what? That sounds like a vague hand wavy health claim. If you mean it is more readily absorbed, say that.
You are operating in the wellness space. I blog in this space and have for years. You will get compared to really crappy, shady companies. You need to do all in your power to sound nothing like them.
I realize you are a recent convert, so you are enthusiastic, but you need to come way, way down on the gushy tone. It is a serious problem.
Start a blog. Fill that blog with reliable studies, historical information on conditions like scurvy and how vitamins C and D were discovered, etc
Acknowledge up front that a well rounded diet is best. Blog about how to get that well rounded diet. Then let people know that if they can't manage to fit a well rounded diet into their hectic lives, supplements may be able to help make up for your inability to eat right. Always say may help. Don't make promises that it will do anything at all.
There are multiple conditions where diet alone is insufficient. People with cystic fibrosis are routinely subscribed ADEK vitamins because of malabsorption of fat soluble vitamins. Pregnant women need lots of extra stuff. Athletes need extra stuff.
I would talk a lot about that stuff and completely drop any biohacking language. I would go very conservative with this.
The alternative remedy circles I used to hang in would not care one bit about your spin here. They would want to know the chemical names of the specific vitamin forms you sell. They would also want links to studies and other respectable sources backing up your claims.
Some vitamin forms are inherently more bioavailable. Bioavailability is a big deal. Stop talking about biohacking. Start talking about why their multivitamin isn't doing what they hoped it would.
I have no idea if you are producing a multivitamin. I and most people I know who are serious about alternative health approaches do not consume multivitamins. People who are serious do their own research and they buy individual supplements. If they need vitamin D, they buy vitamin D, not a multivitamin containing D.
The only exception is where you need certain things together. Off the top of my head (therefore possibly filled with inaccuracies), you need to take magnesium and calcium together and you also need vitamins K and D for proper absorption, plus you need twice as much of one of those minerals as the other. Plus it needs to be bioavailable.
If you came up with a formulation with that set of nutrients and backed up your logic as to why you combined it that way, there is a market for that. I used to spend $300/mo on supplements. I am not the only one.
I would blog in the vein of "Did you know that the most commonly available form of calcium supplement is calcium carbonate, the same thing coral is made of? Yup, you are basically eating coral. No wonder it doesn't do much for you. Humans don't absorb it very well. Calcium citrate is substantially more bioavailable. That's a big fancy word that means your body can readily put it to work. It also means that more of it gets put to use."
Etc.
Target markets include athletes, people getting older and trying to maintain an active life, people with specific conditions, etc. You can cite the latest research on staving off osteoporosis and the risk of injury if you are an athlete with a deficiency, etc.
Healthcare and nutrition is nothing new. You are doing yourself no favors by talking like it is.
I would talk about how healthcare has been evolving in this direction for a long time and this is the next incremental step in vitamin efficacy. Take it way down. If you need to start every reply with "I understand your skepticism... " you are doing something wrong.
Appreciate the advice on how to message this. This is exactly what we are trying to convey, and we are working on conveying that.
Currently, I've only posted one medium article, but working on to expand into different topics.
I would like to connect to you, if possible. I'll reach out to you via twitter. Let me know if there is a better way.
https://medium.com/@mynutrigene/vitamins-help-fight-diseases...
if off the shelf vitamines degrade, liquid dont? Or do they but the different rate -
All vitamins degrade within weeeks / months and that's why we are delivering just in time.
We make the supplements the week we plan to ship it. And you should consume our monthly vitamins with the month.
Most of the vitamins right after production (including capping) would degrade on average 50% 6 months after. That's why we are taking the subscription model approach.
Your app doesn't link to 23andme? I must to upload the file?
Can they be injected?
Our vitamins cannot be injected at the moment since most isoforms of vitamins are usually in an inactive form that requires absorption through the gut.
A more appropriate answer here would be "no, our product is not certified/approved for that use". If someone asks about injecting your product (and your product is not specifically intended/designed/approved for that use), then a response about isoforms seems to be the wrong way to go.
Here's an obvious question that you seem to have utterly utterly failed to answer: WHAT SPECIFICALLY ARE YOU ACTUALLY OFFERING TO SEND ME.
Please don't use uppercase for emphasis. It's basically yelling, and the site guidelines ask you not to: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.
I'm sorry. I am angry.
I hear you. This is offtopic, but it's amazing how hard and rare it is to just make that simple a statement about it.
What information is missing from this description, which is front and center on the landing page? "Pure liquid vitamins based on research. Optimized formulations tailored to your body composition that’s 10X more effective." This text appears next to a photos of branded vials containing, one assumes, liquid vitamins.
A month subscription of liquid supplements that is adjusted base on your body composition. Our supplements are adjusted base on your weight, height, age, and gender. And so far, no two orders are the same. It will eventually once we get more orders.
I think the FDA would consider that an insufficient description.
You may also be running afoul of FTC truth-in-advertising law, since you are making claims but not disclosing actual ingredients.
I think this may be a good thing. But I've heard overdosing on Vitamin D increases some cancers and cardiovascular issues. Why should I trust you and not government funded research?
Our work is based on government funded research as well, but it's more up-to-date. We work with world leading experts such Dr. Bruce Hollis who has spent more than 40 years researching the appropriate Vitamin D consumption. He's started the Vitamin D council (see link below) to inform people how we as a population should be taking more Vitamin D and in particular Vitamin D3.
https://www.vitamindcouncil.org/
Hi Min, say hi to Greg for me!
Check out LabDoor (YC W15), they might be able to help with a lot of testing and insights as you guys grow.
We are definitely checking you guys out. We've spoken to Neil to set something up soon. :)
I’m not LabDoor, but great to hear you’ve already reached out!