I'm 43 years, Indian and have never had a problem squatting. Was surprised this is such a tough thing to do for some. I work sitting on a chair for 8-10 hours everyday, but ensure I take a squat break every 1 hour or so. To make it a habit, I take every opportunity to squat, when I have my green tea, play with my son, watch TV. It does feel great after squatting for 3-4 minutes. I also workout in the gym and perform 4-5 sets of squats with 30Kgs.
I read this yesterday - “Every joint in our body has synovial fluid in it. This is the oil in our body that provides nutrition to the cartilage. Two things are required to produce that fluid: movement and compression. So if a joint doesn’t go through its full range—if the hips and knees never go past 90 degrees—the body says ‘I’m not being used’ and starts to degenerate and stops the production of synovial fluid.”
>if a joint doesn’t go through its full range—if the hips and knees never go past 90 degrees
You don't need to squat to have your knees go past 90 degrees. This would only be an issue for people that are literally bed-ridden, for everyone else our joints move plenty while walking, sitting down and lying in bed at night. I'm sure stretching is good but you're making it sound like not squatting will lead to your joints degenerating.
> you're making it sound like not squatting will lead to your joints degenerating
I believe it will. Specifically, not squatting (or otherwise flexing it fully) will cause a person to lose the full range of motion in their ankles.
Of course, you may not care. You may have no NEED to flex your ankles past a certain point. But you ARE losing flexibility, just as you will lose the ability to do splits if you don't practice them regularly.
Agreed, and walking does not put it near 90 degrees. I lived overseas almost 8 years in SE Asia, and learning to properly squat flat-footed has really made me more flexible, and loosened up my hips and ankles. I also sat on a Pilates ball for 6 to 7 years, but now that I am back in the US, I've gained weight, and sitting at a desk 7 or more hours a day is wreaking havoc on my back and making me stiff again. I take squat breaks, and squat to fill the coffee pot instead of bending over at the water cooler. Bending is something done different in SE Asia too compared to in the West. I lived in a Javanese rice farming village for over a year, and watching and doing the planting and harvesting showed the difference to me. My wife is Indonesian and will perch in a squat on the edge of a chair or sofa while she eats - for 20 minutes. I still can only perch or squat for 5 to 10 minutes maximum.
After reading the prior discussion & spending some time at the gym doing deadlifty things with a trainer, I experimented with doing the squat.
What I found was that while I can do a squat in, e.g., gym shorts, I simply can not do them with my jeans: the jeans constrain my movement substantially. And, the other thing I found, is that a bit of fat on the belly inhibits it as well.
I can't speak for everyone, but jeans and a bit of fat on the belly is sort of stereotypically "normal American" - and that can help explain it to me. Curious what sports scientists have to say here.
They are doing a wide stance version of the squat, it’s commonly referred to in weight lifting as “sumo stance” opens up the hips and reduces the impact of the quads on the lift.
Most trousers (especially men's) are poorly suited to a flexible range of motion. I have pretty flexible hips and large thighs from squatting, and have split my trousers at the groin on more than one occasion doing something silly like a martial arts kick or demonstrating an olympic lift movement. I stick to corduroys now.
Apparently you used to get people wearing cut-off jeans shorts while squatting in the gym, because the tension provides an extra impetus out of the bottom of the movement. A bit like a weightlifting singlet I guess. I've never seen it in person though.
I have trouble squatting at the office, but that is because like you say. Jeans are terrible!
At home I can squat for about 30 seconds or so before it starts to get uncomfortable. I can do it, but haven't built up the endurance as we never use those muscles!
Also, there is no good reason to squat in an office. I'm thinking of bolting a Gameboy to the floor so you have to squat to play Tetris.
That's the reason why for some time now I only buy jeans with stretch. Way more comfy and they don't restrict movements so much - can jump stair steps two, three at a time.
Ugh, jeans. I hate the constricting feel of straight slim solid denim.
But I recently discovered that they now make stretch denim, with spandex in the knit.
It sounds like an energy drink, but Lee Extreme Motion jeans look normal but feel like running tights. And they look great, perhaps better than normal jeans because they fit better. Levi 541 and stretch 514 are good too, but have half the spandex content of the Lee jeans.
I will say that I've had good luck with American Eagle jeans with "stretch flex technology." I can squat down to my feet and throw kicks at head height in their slim fit jeans.
Neither jeans or belly fat are the cause of your issue. As someone who wears jeans and has a lot of belly fat, doing a full squat (and resting in that position) is no issue. I suspect it just has to do with flexibility with the hip muscles, built over a lifetime of squatting in most developing countries.
I think a big part of this is very much a psychological issue.
Because squatting isn't 'common' for many people, it is experienced as more uncomfortable than it really is (even when it's done right - where there's no permanent tension from balance on your toes, for example).
Another example would be sitting cross-legged (or whatever that one leg over the other thing is called) as a man. I find that I and many guys I know naturally feel comfortable doing this, but we're taught from a young age that it's 'gay', so we learn not to do it.
I've noticed that people with autism spectrum disorder often have really odd ways of standing or sitting, and one particular thing I've noticed is that this often includes squatting, sitting cross-legged / yoga-style, or sitting on the couch with your legs folded up close to your body. In my case, these are things I often consciously avoid doing when other people are around, because it's perceived as odd or childish (or at least I think it is).
It would make sense that people with asd might just not care about or know these things, and do what's naturally comfortable/efficient.
Interesting, I've never heard anyone tell anyone else that sitting cross-legged is somehow unmanly. (I'm German). More like "don't sit like that in a professional setting" but that's also not something I remember anyone saying, it's more tribal knowledge.
Yes, it's pretty uncommon seeing people in public do it (sometimes on the floor or on ledges), but there are not many opportunities.
As a relatively big guy, I absolutely envy some of my smaller colleagues (yeah, mostly women) who can sit cross-legged in their office chairs - I'd absolutely do it, but I'm just too big, and just crossing one leg under the other often leads to numbness after a while.
Years ago I read a book which suggested that this was specific to the U.S.: sitting cross-legged doesn't carry any particular gender / sexuality coding elsewhere.
There are two different kind of cross-legged being described here - the OP means sitting in a chair with your right leg on top of your left, while the reply mentions the floor which suggests the feet-under-thighs position.
I can confirm that the former is considered effeminate by some in the UK. The latter perhaps childish.
> There are two different kind of cross-legged being described here - the OP means sitting in a chair with your right leg on top of your left, while the reply mentions the floor which suggests the feet-under-thighs position.
There is a third - sitting in a chair with just your right ankle/calf (rather than the entire leg) resting on your left knee. I'm in the US and sit like this often, and see other guys sitting like that often as well. For me, and I would imagine most other males due to the male anatomy, it's just far more comfortable than having the other leg fully crossed. I have a feeling that this "anatomy issue" is why it's very uncommon to see males sitting that way, but seen very commonly in females, and as a result that's why it's considered effeminate when you see the rare male sitting that way.
For those in the thread looking for advice, I recommend performing overhead squats. Just use a broom handle with a wide grip. It's almost impossible to squat incorrectly when doing overhead squats and imo this makes it an excellent intro. Additionally, it feels amazing once you get stretched and comfy.
I trained in Olympic weightlifting for a bit (non-competitively) and this is how they started inflexible people and noobs in general, and as someone who's taught many to squat, I've never seen it done as smoothly and have adopted this method of teaching.
This. The overhead squat is the secret sauce. When I first started olympic weight lifting (I had already been hitting the gym for years) I had an olympic lifter teach me the move, b/c my squatting technique was so poor.
It should be the first thing anyone learns IMHO. It teaches flexibility, balance, a great range of motion, and to your point it feels really amazing. You almost never see anyone at the gym doing it though. Its definitely way underrated. My squat, vertical jump, and single leg strength went way up doing this. Not to mention it teaches great form for cleans and snatches.
I've seen my fair share of folks pick up Olympic lifting. While many eventually "get" it, the overhead squat does not force good form. People lean forward, or pick up their heels. After shoulders, hips, and ankles eventually gain flexibility, then, yeah, the overhead squat ensures good form because you can't support much weight on the bar otherwise. If you can overhead squat a solid amount of weight, you must have good form. A kind of survivorship bias :)
For me, I have flexibility issues. I've been lifting from years now. I can "Asian squat" now and I can back squat well over 300lbs, but I can only overhead squat 125lbs once, and then I'm tore up for days.
It creates good form because it forces your shoulders, spine and hips to be in the proper positions for a real squat. Of course, there are ways around this (such as inflexibility as you mentioned) but I've found it's a great teaching method for transferring into real back squats. In general it's much harder to screw up an overhead squat than it is a back squat, and often (in my experience) people struggle to kinematically understand even a weightless body squat.
If you've ever spent a couple evenings trying to teach someone proper back squat form, you may know the struggles involved. In my experience a quick lesson on overhead squats speeds this process up greatly. And just to be clear, I'm not advocating anyone try weighted overhead squats, I just thought I'd share what I felt was a great intro/supplement into this "Asian" squatting.
I think it's important not to push the broom handle/PVC pipe practice further than necessary. People can hold a broom handle in all sorts of positions that would be impossible with even an empty bar, possibly ingraining bad habits.
>People can hold a broom handle in all sorts of positions that would be impossible with even an empty bar, possibly ingraining bad habits.
Just to be clear I wasn't intending my comment above to be used as a stepping stone for weighted overhead squats. I just find that keeping a bar overhead forces proper shoulder, spine and hip posture that enables one to squat properly down the road. For some, it causes that "aha" moment when it comes to squatting properly.
”The table provides only a few studies, of which there are dozens. What is important to note is that regardless of the specific leg measure taken, longer LL is associated with better environments, better nutrition, higher SES, and better general health, overall.”
⇒ people in richer nations, on average, have longer legs.
Combining the two, it seems logical more people have problems doing this in richer nations.
That paper also mentions other factors, though, in particular that people in warmer climates have longer legs. That seems an argument against that. Asia is cold in places, but in general, it’s quite hot.
In complete seriousness, anyone can do this. Honest. It is something anyone can learn with even a bare minimum of practice. And despite the joking nature of the video I linked, it is quite accurate in that once you know how, it is quite a comfortable position to hold for whatever length of time you feel like.
FWIW I've seen squating toilets installed in a brand new building in France 30 years ago (called Turkish toilets there). I had seen them in older buildings but asked why you'd use those in a brand new building. I was told that it was to save on cleaning time, that you can clean an entire room with many stalls with a broom and a hose in the same amount of time it takes to clean single stall that has a regular western toilet.
Indian origin here, from a young age my parents would with me sit on the floor even though we had chairs, cross legged. I found a lot of my English mates struggle to cross their legs, even as an adult I can do it but goto classes where I see them struggle. We used to squat to eat as most Ayurvedic principles say this is the best way to both eat and poo, it keeps your colon straight whilst sitting on a seat forces your poo out at an angle and increases wear and tear. Anyhow, the reason why everyone cant do the Asian squat IMO is arrogance/ego more than anything, I think a lot of Western people stick their nose up at it thinking its something poor people do. When infact its how your body was designed, but years of not doing it deactivates your knees and makes your legs less supple, which in turn causes knee and back problems.
I just tried it (middle aged white dude) and my lack of ankle flexibility just won't let me keep my heels on the ground. Maybe I'll add it to my workout warmup to see if things improve over time.
How many people actually sit straight on the toilet? You often see them leaning forward, sometime quite a bit (red marks on knees from the elbows anyone?) which should produce a similar effect.
Classic article on undoing the Damage of Sitting. It includes squats and six other relevant exercises. After following most this for a month, I'm able to squat pretty darn well. I don't use weights or spend suspended time squatting.
When I started my knees and feet twisted outward as I went down. I couldn't go down all the way without pain.
"Developed" is a multifaceted concept. I'm currently in one of the larger cities in China, and everyone here has cellphones and wifi; there is an extensive subway; many people own cars or e-bikes; there are many shopping malls, restaurants, supermarkets, convenience stores etc -- but the vast majority of bathrooms feature squatting toilets. There are some cracks in the facade -- sewage flowing openly down one alley into a drain, unfinished vacant buildings here and there, dubiously sanitary handling of raw meat, placebo recycling, the infamous haze, and the grotesquely popular practice of hocking loogies onto the sidewalk, to name a few -- but China manages to feel quite developed and almost comfortable.
It's not just pooping. If you hang around East Asians you might notice they squat all the time. Sitting at a table, on a sofa, pretty much everywhere. When I think of my memories of my grandmother, guess what, she's squatting.
I only noticed the difference when my western wife pointed it out. In the west people barely ever take up this position.
You should try it, there's something very comfy about being all scrunched up. If you can't balance, try doing it in the corner of a sofa or with some other support.
The slightly less PC name of "third-world squat" was how the position had always been known to me.
Which, while probably also being technically incorrect, does make the slightly more correct observation that it isn't something to do with "asian" countries and cultures specifically, but there seems to be some correlation between finding the position difficult/impossible, and living in western Europe/the anglosphere...
To the untrained eye, there may not be any difference between the Slav and the Asian one. But if you look closely the Slav squat has the legs spread wider and toes pointing quite a bit outwards as compared to the Asian squat
It's just the matter of what are you doing with your hands - if you want to pick up something from the ground then narrow knees will block your arms from reaching in front of you, but if you are holding something close to your face then narrow knees are better as you can rest your upper arms on them.
I've been working with my physical therapist to be able to do this. My computer use had me so stiff and immobile that, not only could I not squat, I had a hip impingement. Hip still hurts often, and lots of my joints are tight, but with hard work I've regained a lot of range of motion and I'm close to being able to fully squat. I'm more flexible now than I've been since I was a kid.
Everyone can, all toddlers do it. They don't bend over to pick things up, they squat down.
Having long tibia and short femurs help getting the angle right, but that's really only important for olympic weightlifting (smaller angles to change => faster transitions between the pull and the catch).
tl; dr - most of us westerners are fat and lazy and could do the 3rd world squat if we didn't prefer chairs.
That's faulty logic. Toddlers' bones and cartilage aren't fully developed and as a result their skeletal system is more pliable. They have more bones than an adult (270 vs. 206 per wikipedia) with areas of cartilage in between that allow for flexibility which diminishes when the maturing bones fuse in place.
This subject reminds me of a funny moment in a trip a couple of years ago; I travelled to the Phillipines with a few friends; One of my friends (white) said "Asian squat" is not possible for white people. I shit myself laughing... he kept pointing out why and just sounded even more ridiculous! I did it and said "well surely black people can"; I asked him to try it (he's into sports and not sure how he can't do it) and he failed: "you see...It's difficult for me as a white man"; I kept laughing and he asked one of our Asian friends to do it and like me, she did easily. Suddenly another friend comes and asks what we are talking about; He's the whitest guy ever, english and not really much into sports as my white Mediterranean friend; He tries to do it first attempt and Baaam!
From what I know, the slav squat is also an equivalent slang term.
In gym and fitness contexts, it would be an ass-to-grass squat.
The most polite way of expressing it would be to call it a deep squat, or a squat that's "past the parallel".
I was 18yo when I first heard of the "Asian squat". I had no problem performing it, and I still have no problem with it at 41. Now I know why: "Short limbs, big heads, and long torsos make it easier to balance." I'm 6' with a 29" inseam and a 7.75 hat size. This may be the only advantage of a 29" inseam that I've found...
It's probably just an issue with athleticism. Balance and flexibility also increase greatly with strength training. I have been strength training 3x/week for 8 years now.
Before that I don't think I could have done this, heck I don't think I could have squatted 95lbs. These days I can hold a squat like that nearly permanently, plus lots of other things you wouldn't expect from strength training like it's much easier for me to fall and than prevent myself from hitting the ground by re-balancing myself if I skip on ice or something like that.
Build might mess up the physics a bit, but I'd guess 99.99% of humans in good physical condition can do this.
Barmah makes hats in very large sizes. I wear a canvas one in the winter (great for keeping snow off your neck) and a mesh one in the summer (avoid sunburn, keep the breeze).
Has anyone gone from being unable to do this to doing it easily, with good form? If so, what did you do?
(For context, my left low back and my right heel both have lower range of motion from injuries. Presumably that can be improved.)
Update: I have a preliminary answer to my own question: squat more. I just read more hacker news while squatting, and the front of my ankles quickly became tired.
I can not do it easily, but if I'm wearing shoes with any kind of heal (even running shoes), I can squat down well enough to do things like gardening. Although there is a certain amount of flexibility in the hips, etc, the main issue is range of motion in the ankles. You need to be able to get your knees considerably in front of your toes in order to be able to shift your weight forward far enough not to fall over backwards. Most people also have poor strength balance between the calf muscle and the muscles at the front of the shin. You need the muscles as the front for the shin to lift your toes upwards -- so if you are struggling with range of motion, you will be pulling on those muscles to help you. When you have enough range of motion, gravity will do that for you.
Range of motion can be improved with training, but everyone has a limit. Where that limit is, depends on the person. If you practice every day for 6 months, then you can probably safely say that you've hit your limit.
I grew up where the Eastern toilet was the only available choice. Now, having lived in the west for over a decade, I struggle to squat on eastern toilets, often fall backwards!
Also, if your injuries involve tendons, ligaments or cartilage, you can feed those tissues with gelatine. You can buy plain gelatine and add hot water, stir vigorously and add a little apple juice for flavor and to cool it to drinking temperature. Consume rapidly before the goo starts solidifying in the cup.
I did this daily for a year or two to help heal old injuries. My impairment improved substantially and was never so bad again.
In the beginning, your will be leaning forward a lot. By the time you have perfected this movement, which too me 15-16 weeks, you are able to squat effortlessly. Until then, you can use a modification[1]
I was more like a by product for me. I started rowing 3 years ago and was really surprised how flexible I got by now. I always struggled doing the asian squat ... but not anymore.
This brings the topic of flexibility. Some guy told me that stretching was mostly a brain control thing (according to his theory overstretch pain is a high level brain safety signal that may be quite far from the actual state of the muscles and muscle fibers. Basically he advocates that stretching is mostly a mind problem not a muscle problem)
Stretch your calves. General strength training would also help. Tip: Don't relax though, try to hold the position with active muscles and somewhat straight back. Then you will also get stronger and burn fat/energy while also gaining flexibility! It will help with getting your socks on in the morning and general fitness.
I'm pretty tall 6'4 (193 cm) and a lot of that height is in my legs and always had difficult doing the full range of squat without losing balance - at best I could get 50% of the way without falling over. Then I had my knee damaged and my ankle broken in 3 places on my right leg (on two separate occasions) and no I really cannot go more than 25% of the way down. If I hold on to something I can get to 50% of the way down. But that is not an actual squat, feels pretty uncomfortable and not exactly sure it isn't damaging.
My brother-in-law was in the army in an Asian country, and whenever they had to wait (which was all the time) they would do so in a squatting position. You would see young civilian males (never females) doing it too while hanging around outside of a shop or at a bus stop. As they get older, it's harder, though.
I didn't care about getting into a deep squat until about 4 years ago, when I started lifting. I would say it's taken me 2 or 3 years to be able to do it comfortably.
It's a very natural and stable position to be in. Yesterday, I saw my almost one year old, who cannot walk, just falling into the squat position.
This is the most vexing part of the sport of weightlifting. The strength comes quickly, but the mobility to squat deep with an upright torso comes very very slowly. That's why there are about a million articles and forum posts with titles just like this one.
I'm white, 20yo, and squat a lot. Strange though this might sound, I actually squat for hours on end at the computer. For me it's more comfortable than sitting. Also I'm 6'2", so long legs. Ya, I know I'm weird. :)
I'm 30, relatively tall Californian male. I've done the Asian squat ever since I read about this distinction 10 years ago. Before that I always squatted the Western way even though i had good flexibility from sports & martial arts
I'm 43 years, Indian and have never had a problem squatting. Was surprised this is such a tough thing to do for some. I work sitting on a chair for 8-10 hours everyday, but ensure I take a squat break every 1 hour or so. To make it a habit, I take every opportunity to squat, when I have my green tea, play with my son, watch TV. It does feel great after squatting for 3-4 minutes. I also workout in the gym and perform 4-5 sets of squats with 30Kgs.
I read this yesterday - “Every joint in our body has synovial fluid in it. This is the oil in our body that provides nutrition to the cartilage. Two things are required to produce that fluid: movement and compression. So if a joint doesn’t go through its full range—if the hips and knees never go past 90 degrees—the body says ‘I’m not being used’ and starts to degenerate and stops the production of synovial fluid.”
https://quartzy.qz.com/1121077/to-solve-problems-caused-by-s...
>if a joint doesn’t go through its full range—if the hips and knees never go past 90 degrees
You don't need to squat to have your knees go past 90 degrees. This would only be an issue for people that are literally bed-ridden, for everyone else our joints move plenty while walking, sitting down and lying in bed at night. I'm sure stretching is good but you're making it sound like not squatting will lead to your joints degenerating.
> you're making it sound like not squatting will lead to your joints degenerating
I believe it will. Specifically, not squatting (or otherwise flexing it fully) will cause a person to lose the full range of motion in their ankles.
Of course, you may not care. You may have no NEED to flex your ankles past a certain point. But you ARE losing flexibility, just as you will lose the ability to do splits if you don't practice them regularly.
Agreed, and walking does not put it near 90 degrees. I lived overseas almost 8 years in SE Asia, and learning to properly squat flat-footed has really made me more flexible, and loosened up my hips and ankles. I also sat on a Pilates ball for 6 to 7 years, but now that I am back in the US, I've gained weight, and sitting at a desk 7 or more hours a day is wreaking havoc on my back and making me stiff again. I take squat breaks, and squat to fill the coffee pot instead of bending over at the water cooler. Bending is something done different in SE Asia too compared to in the West. I lived in a Javanese rice farming village for over a year, and watching and doing the planting and harvesting showed the difference to me. My wife is Indonesian and will perch in a squat on the edge of a chair or sofa while she eats - for 20 minutes. I still can only perch or squat for 5 to 10 minutes maximum.
After reading the prior discussion & spending some time at the gym doing deadlifty things with a trainer, I experimented with doing the squat.
What I found was that while I can do a squat in, e.g., gym shorts, I simply can not do them with my jeans: the jeans constrain my movement substantially. And, the other thing I found, is that a bit of fat on the belly inhibits it as well.
I can't speak for everyone, but jeans and a bit of fat on the belly is sort of stereotypically "normal American" - and that can help explain it to me. Curious what sports scientists have to say here.
And, the other thing I found, is that a bit of fat on the belly inhibits it as well.
Look at the low stance of sumo wrestlers - belly fat doesn't prevent them, it's all in the hip and ankle mobility.
Sumo is not doing a normal squat their feet are spread much farther apart. This allows for all that belly fat, but significantly changes the stance.
They are doing a wide stance version of the squat, it’s commonly referred to in weight lifting as “sumo stance” opens up the hips and reduces the impact of the quads on the lift.
Most trousers (especially men's) are poorly suited to a flexible range of motion. I have pretty flexible hips and large thighs from squatting, and have split my trousers at the groin on more than one occasion doing something silly like a martial arts kick or demonstrating an olympic lift movement. I stick to corduroys now.
Apparently you used to get people wearing cut-off jeans shorts while squatting in the gym, because the tension provides an extra impetus out of the bottom of the movement. A bit like a weightlifting singlet I guess. I've never seen it in person though.
As an American male with more than a bit of fat on my belly, that doesn't seem to inhibit squatting at all.
Some jeans (or other tight-fitting, inflexible pants) with particular cuts might, though.
I have trouble squatting at the office, but that is because like you say. Jeans are terrible!
At home I can squat for about 30 seconds or so before it starts to get uncomfortable. I can do it, but haven't built up the endurance as we never use those muscles!
Also, there is no good reason to squat in an office. I'm thinking of bolting a Gameboy to the floor so you have to squat to play Tetris.
That's the reason why for some time now I only buy jeans with stretch. Way more comfy and they don't restrict movements so much - can jump stair steps two, three at a time.
Ugh, jeans. I hate the constricting feel of straight slim solid denim.
But I recently discovered that they now make stretch denim, with spandex in the knit.
It sounds like an energy drink, but Lee Extreme Motion jeans look normal but feel like running tights. And they look great, perhaps better than normal jeans because they fit better. Levi 541 and stretch 514 are good too, but have half the spandex content of the Lee jeans.
I will say that I've had good luck with American Eagle jeans with "stretch flex technology." I can squat down to my feet and throw kicks at head height in their slim fit jeans.
Thanks! Just bought a pair. These look great. They have slacks too.
Fat Asian here: if I hike up my jeans so that the crotch is at my actual crotch, I can squat just fine.
Neither jeans or belly fat are the cause of your issue. As someone who wears jeans and has a lot of belly fat, doing a full squat (and resting in that position) is no issue. I suspect it just has to do with flexibility with the hip muscles, built over a lifetime of squatting in most developing countries.
I think a big part of this is very much a psychological issue.
Because squatting isn't 'common' for many people, it is experienced as more uncomfortable than it really is (even when it's done right - where there's no permanent tension from balance on your toes, for example).
Another example would be sitting cross-legged (or whatever that one leg over the other thing is called) as a man. I find that I and many guys I know naturally feel comfortable doing this, but we're taught from a young age that it's 'gay', so we learn not to do it.
I've noticed that people with autism spectrum disorder often have really odd ways of standing or sitting, and one particular thing I've noticed is that this often includes squatting, sitting cross-legged / yoga-style, or sitting on the couch with your legs folded up close to your body. In my case, these are things I often consciously avoid doing when other people are around, because it's perceived as odd or childish (or at least I think it is).
It would make sense that people with asd might just not care about or know these things, and do what's naturally comfortable/efficient.
Interesting, I've never heard anyone tell anyone else that sitting cross-legged is somehow unmanly. (I'm German). More like "don't sit like that in a professional setting" but that's also not something I remember anyone saying, it's more tribal knowledge.
Yes, it's pretty uncommon seeing people in public do it (sometimes on the floor or on ledges), but there are not many opportunities.
As a relatively big guy, I absolutely envy some of my smaller colleagues (yeah, mostly women) who can sit cross-legged in their office chairs - I'd absolutely do it, but I'm just too big, and just crossing one leg under the other often leads to numbness after a while.
Years ago I read a book which suggested that this was specific to the U.S.: sitting cross-legged doesn't carry any particular gender / sexuality coding elsewhere.
There are two different kind of cross-legged being described here - the OP means sitting in a chair with your right leg on top of your left, while the reply mentions the floor which suggests the feet-under-thighs position.
I can confirm that the former is considered effeminate by some in the UK. The latter perhaps childish.
> There are two different kind of cross-legged being described here - the OP means sitting in a chair with your right leg on top of your left, while the reply mentions the floor which suggests the feet-under-thighs position.
There is a third - sitting in a chair with just your right ankle/calf (rather than the entire leg) resting on your left knee. I'm in the US and sit like this often, and see other guys sitting like that often as well. For me, and I would imagine most other males due to the male anatomy, it's just far more comfortable than having the other leg fully crossed. I have a feeling that this "anatomy issue" is why it's very uncommon to see males sitting that way, but seen very commonly in females, and as a result that's why it's considered effeminate when you see the rare male sitting that way.
I can confirm that the former is considered effeminate by some in the UK.
That’s weird, because no one has ever mentioned anything of the sort to me. Were they particularly small-c conservative?
As a Midwesterner, I've never heard this before. The only stipulation is it's seen as informal. Is this a regonal thing?
I'm not sure. I can't do a squat with proper form. And I have reason to want to do one, for barbell lifts.
I'm working on unloaded squats now. I can get down comfortably with my heels on the ground. But, my back isn't great, it rounds.
Whereas I can easily get off the ground cross legged, as I've been doing that motion sonce childhood. Squatting, I only tried a few years ago.
For those in the thread looking for advice, I recommend performing overhead squats. Just use a broom handle with a wide grip. It's almost impossible to squat incorrectly when doing overhead squats and imo this makes it an excellent intro. Additionally, it feels amazing once you get stretched and comfy.
I trained in Olympic weightlifting for a bit (non-competitively) and this is how they started inflexible people and noobs in general, and as someone who's taught many to squat, I've never seen it done as smoothly and have adopted this method of teaching.
This. The overhead squat is the secret sauce. When I first started olympic weight lifting (I had already been hitting the gym for years) I had an olympic lifter teach me the move, b/c my squatting technique was so poor.
It should be the first thing anyone learns IMHO. It teaches flexibility, balance, a great range of motion, and to your point it feels really amazing. You almost never see anyone at the gym doing it though. Its definitely way underrated. My squat, vertical jump, and single leg strength went way up doing this. Not to mention it teaches great form for cleans and snatches.
It works when it works :)
I've seen my fair share of folks pick up Olympic lifting. While many eventually "get" it, the overhead squat does not force good form. People lean forward, or pick up their heels. After shoulders, hips, and ankles eventually gain flexibility, then, yeah, the overhead squat ensures good form because you can't support much weight on the bar otherwise. If you can overhead squat a solid amount of weight, you must have good form. A kind of survivorship bias :)
For me, I have flexibility issues. I've been lifting from years now. I can "Asian squat" now and I can back squat well over 300lbs, but I can only overhead squat 125lbs once, and then I'm tore up for days.
It creates good form because it forces your shoulders, spine and hips to be in the proper positions for a real squat. Of course, there are ways around this (such as inflexibility as you mentioned) but I've found it's a great teaching method for transferring into real back squats. In general it's much harder to screw up an overhead squat than it is a back squat, and often (in my experience) people struggle to kinematically understand even a weightless body squat.
If you've ever spent a couple evenings trying to teach someone proper back squat form, you may know the struggles involved. In my experience a quick lesson on overhead squats speeds this process up greatly. And just to be clear, I'm not advocating anyone try weighted overhead squats, I just thought I'd share what I felt was a great intro/supplement into this "Asian" squatting.
Also, 125 is a solid overhead squat!
I think it's important not to push the broom handle/PVC pipe practice further than necessary. People can hold a broom handle in all sorts of positions that would be impossible with even an empty bar, possibly ingraining bad habits.
>People can hold a broom handle in all sorts of positions that would be impossible with even an empty bar, possibly ingraining bad habits.
Just to be clear I wasn't intending my comment above to be used as a stepping stone for weighted overhead squats. I just find that keeping a bar overhead forces proper shoulder, spine and hip posture that enables one to squat properly down the road. For some, it causes that "aha" moment when it comes to squatting properly.
”Body shape also seems to play a role. Short limbs, big heads, and long torsos make it easier to balance.”
⇒ it is harder for people with relatively long legs.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2872302/#!po=27..., section 7.1 (SES = socioeconomic status)
”The table provides only a few studies, of which there are dozens. What is important to note is that regardless of the specific leg measure taken, longer LL is associated with better environments, better nutrition, higher SES, and better general health, overall.”
⇒ people in richer nations, on average, have longer legs.
Combining the two, it seems logical more people have problems doing this in richer nations.
That paper also mentions other factors, though, in particular that people in warmer climates have longer legs. That seems an argument against that. Asia is cold in places, but in general, it’s quite hot.
I believe Boris explains the hows and whys quite well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-8gsWZqDBM
In complete seriousness, anyone can do this. Honest. It is something anyone can learn with even a bare minimum of practice. And despite the joking nature of the video I linked, it is quite accurate in that once you know how, it is quite a comfortable position to hold for whatever length of time you feel like.
FWIW I've seen squating toilets installed in a brand new building in France 30 years ago (called Turkish toilets there). I had seen them in older buildings but asked why you'd use those in a brand new building. I was told that it was to save on cleaning time, that you can clean an entire room with many stalls with a broom and a hose in the same amount of time it takes to clean single stall that has a regular western toilet.
Interestingly, squatting toilets are called "alaturka" in Turkey, which is "à la turca" turned into a Turkish word.
Indian origin here, from a young age my parents would with me sit on the floor even though we had chairs, cross legged. I found a lot of my English mates struggle to cross their legs, even as an adult I can do it but goto classes where I see them struggle. We used to squat to eat as most Ayurvedic principles say this is the best way to both eat and poo, it keeps your colon straight whilst sitting on a seat forces your poo out at an angle and increases wear and tear. Anyhow, the reason why everyone cant do the Asian squat IMO is arrogance/ego more than anything, I think a lot of Western people stick their nose up at it thinking its something poor people do. When infact its how your body was designed, but years of not doing it deactivates your knees and makes your legs less supple, which in turn causes knee and back problems.
I just tried it (middle aged white dude) and my lack of ankle flexibility just won't let me keep my heels on the ground. Maybe I'll add it to my workout warmup to see if things improve over time.
Try this progressive training[0], and keep at it. Progress may be slow, but will eventually happen.
[0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJBLDJMJiDE
How many people actually sit straight on the toilet? You often see them leaning forward, sometime quite a bit (red marks on knees from the elbows anyone?) which should produce a similar effect.
It's not the leaning forward, it's more raising the legs, people often get stools to help with this
Wouldn't that have the same effect?
I'm not sure it does, it probably helps but try it yourself on the toilet, raise your legs, there is a difference
I just found some scientific proof for what you were saying about the angle of descent
https://youtu.be/YbYWhdLO43Q
Classic article on undoing the Damage of Sitting. It includes squats and six other relevant exercises. After following most this for a month, I'm able to squat pretty darn well. I don't use weights or spend suspended time squatting.
When I started my knees and feet twisted outward as I went down. I couldn't go down all the way without pain.
https://www.artofmanliness.com/2014/08/05/undo-the-damage-of...
It seems rather obvious that if squatting is required for restroom visits, that's the reason everyone has them practiced and has no problem with it.
> if squatting is required for restroom visits
I believe squatting toilets aren't so common anymore in developed asian countries.
"Developed" is a multifaceted concept. I'm currently in one of the larger cities in China, and everyone here has cellphones and wifi; there is an extensive subway; many people own cars or e-bikes; there are many shopping malls, restaurants, supermarkets, convenience stores etc -- but the vast majority of bathrooms feature squatting toilets. There are some cracks in the facade -- sewage flowing openly down one alley into a drain, unfinished vacant buildings here and there, dubiously sanitary handling of raw meat, placebo recycling, the infamous haze, and the grotesquely popular practice of hocking loogies onto the sidewalk, to name a few -- but China manages to feel quite developed and almost comfortable.
It's not just pooping. If you hang around East Asians you might notice they squat all the time. Sitting at a table, on a sofa, pretty much everywhere. When I think of my memories of my grandmother, guess what, she's squatting.
I only noticed the difference when my western wife pointed it out. In the west people barely ever take up this position.
You should try it, there's something very comfy about being all scrunched up. If you can't balance, try doing it in the corner of a sofa or with some other support.
Put on a tracksuit and this becomes the Slav Squat.
https://www.google.com/search?q=slav+squat&rlz=1C1CHFX_enUS5...
The slightly less PC name of "third-world squat" was how the position had always been known to me.
Which, while probably also being technically incorrect, does make the slightly more correct observation that it isn't something to do with "asian" countries and cultures specifically, but there seems to be some correlation between finding the position difficult/impossible, and living in western Europe/the anglosphere...
To the untrained eye, there may not be any difference between the Slav and the Asian one. But if you look closely the Slav squat has the legs spread wider and toes pointing quite a bit outwards as compared to the Asian squat
It's just the matter of what are you doing with your hands - if you want to pick up something from the ground then narrow knees will block your arms from reaching in front of you, but if you are holding something close to your face then narrow knees are better as you can rest your upper arms on them.
the article says the knees should be close together
Everyone know it is been Slav Squat first. China copy everything!
I've been working with my physical therapist to be able to do this. My computer use had me so stiff and immobile that, not only could I not squat, I had a hip impingement. Hip still hurts often, and lots of my joints are tight, but with hard work I've regained a lot of range of motion and I'm close to being able to fully squat. I'm more flexible now than I've been since I was a kid.
Everyone can, all toddlers do it. They don't bend over to pick things up, they squat down.
Having long tibia and short femurs help getting the angle right, but that's really only important for olympic weightlifting (smaller angles to change => faster transitions between the pull and the catch).
tl; dr - most of us westerners are fat and lazy and could do the 3rd world squat if we didn't prefer chairs.
> Everyone can, all toddlers do it.
That's faulty logic. Toddlers' bones and cartilage aren't fully developed and as a result their skeletal system is more pliable. They have more bones than an adult (270 vs. 206 per wikipedia) with areas of cartilage in between that allow for flexibility which diminishes when the maturing bones fuse in place.
This topic elicited some discussion a few weeks ago:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16471215
This subject reminds me of a funny moment in a trip a couple of years ago; I travelled to the Phillipines with a few friends; One of my friends (white) said "Asian squat" is not possible for white people. I shit myself laughing... he kept pointing out why and just sounded even more ridiculous! I did it and said "well surely black people can"; I asked him to try it (he's into sports and not sure how he can't do it) and he failed: "you see...It's difficult for me as a white man"; I kept laughing and he asked one of our Asian friends to do it and like me, she did easily. Suddenly another friend comes and asks what we are talking about; He's the whitest guy ever, english and not really much into sports as my white Mediterranean friend; He tries to do it first attempt and Baaam!
That was funny :)
just to be clear, this is same thing as a slav squat, right? First time I've heard it as Asian
I suppose not having to wear track pants, an early 20th century hat and cigarette are what differentiate the two.
It's the squat you'd use to use a toilet like this: https://bredlowfamily.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/toilet.jpg
From what I know, the slav squat is also an equivalent slang term. In gym and fitness contexts, it would be an ass-to-grass squat. The most polite way of expressing it would be to call it a deep squat, or a squat that's "past the parallel".
I was 18yo when I first heard of the "Asian squat". I had no problem performing it, and I still have no problem with it at 41. Now I know why: "Short limbs, big heads, and long torsos make it easier to balance." I'm 6' with a 29" inseam and a 7.75 hat size. This may be the only advantage of a 29" inseam that I've found...
It's probably just an issue with athleticism. Balance and flexibility also increase greatly with strength training. I have been strength training 3x/week for 8 years now.
Before that I don't think I could have done this, heck I don't think I could have squatted 95lbs. These days I can hold a squat like that nearly permanently, plus lots of other things you wouldn't expect from strength training like it's much easier for me to fall and than prevent myself from hitting the ground by re-balancing myself if I skip on ice or something like that.
Build might mess up the physics a bit, but I'd guess 99.99% of humans in good physical condition can do this.
Off topic... but...
MAN... 7.75 is big?
My head is enormous. I never knew.
Husky headed boy checking in. My hat size is slightly over 8. One Size Fits all is a joke.
Anybody know where I can buy a hat?
Tilley do a 3XL 8+ size
https://www.tilley.com/uk_en/size-guide
Barmah makes hats in very large sizes. I wear a canvas one in the winter (great for keeping snow off your neck) and a mesh one in the summer (avoid sunburn, keep the breeze).
So can you do the Asian squat?
Has anyone gone from being unable to do this to doing it easily, with good form? If so, what did you do?
(For context, my left low back and my right heel both have lower range of motion from injuries. Presumably that can be improved.)
Update: I have a preliminary answer to my own question: squat more. I just read more hacker news while squatting, and the front of my ankles quickly became tired.
I can not do it easily, but if I'm wearing shoes with any kind of heal (even running shoes), I can squat down well enough to do things like gardening. Although there is a certain amount of flexibility in the hips, etc, the main issue is range of motion in the ankles. You need to be able to get your knees considerably in front of your toes in order to be able to shift your weight forward far enough not to fall over backwards. Most people also have poor strength balance between the calf muscle and the muscles at the front of the shin. You need the muscles as the front for the shin to lift your toes upwards -- so if you are struggling with range of motion, you will be pulling on those muscles to help you. When you have enough range of motion, gravity will do that for you.
Range of motion can be improved with training, but everyone has a limit. Where that limit is, depends on the person. If you practice every day for 6 months, then you can probably safely say that you've hit your limit.
I can now easily squat for extended periods, but couldn't before. This changed after I started to do weightlifting and associated required stretching.
I went the other way around!
I grew up where the Eastern toilet was the only available choice. Now, having lived in the west for over a decade, I struggle to squat on eastern toilets, often fall backwards!
Make it a daily habit.
Also, if your injuries involve tendons, ligaments or cartilage, you can feed those tissues with gelatine. You can buy plain gelatine and add hot water, stir vigorously and add a little apple juice for flavor and to cool it to drinking temperature. Consume rapidly before the goo starts solidifying in the cup.
I did this daily for a year or two to help heal old injuries. My impairment improved substantially and was never so bad again.
About 3-4 months of doing this[1] has gotten me to a point where I can sit in the squat position without any effort.
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Opw9G1qKCcM
"How to squat" minute three: As you exhale, you squat straight down with perfect form. Done.
In the beginning, your will be leaning forward a lot. By the time you have perfected this movement, which too me 15-16 weeks, you are able to squat effortlessly. Until then, you can use a modification[1]
[1] https://youtu.be/Opw9G1qKCcM?t=332
I was more like a by product for me. I started rowing 3 years ago and was really surprised how flexible I got by now. I always struggled doing the asian squat ... but not anymore.
look into range of motion exercises for ankle & knee physical rehabilitation
This brings the topic of flexibility. Some guy told me that stretching was mostly a brain control thing (according to his theory overstretch pain is a high level brain safety signal that may be quite far from the actual state of the muscles and muscle fibers. Basically he advocates that stretching is mostly a mind problem not a muscle problem)
Stretch your calves. General strength training would also help. Tip: Don't relax though, try to hold the position with active muscles and somewhat straight back. Then you will also get stronger and burn fat/energy while also gaining flexibility! It will help with getting your socks on in the morning and general fitness.
> So humans are born squatters; some of us lose it when we stop trying
A friend had a daughter recently and it always surprised me to see her squat casually by herself. It's a very natural motion for human beings
I'm pretty tall 6'4 (193 cm) and a lot of that height is in my legs and always had difficult doing the full range of squat without losing balance - at best I could get 50% of the way without falling over. Then I had my knee damaged and my ankle broken in 3 places on my right leg (on two separate occasions) and no I really cannot go more than 25% of the way down. If I hold on to something I can get to 50% of the way down. But that is not an actual squat, feels pretty uncomfortable and not exactly sure it isn't damaging.
really what I can manage is not 50% of a squat but more 50% of a sumo stance as it is called elsewhere.
My brother-in-law was in the army in an Asian country, and whenever they had to wait (which was all the time) they would do so in a squatting position. You would see young civilian males (never females) doing it too while hanging around outside of a shop or at a bus stop. As they get older, it's harder, though.
I didn't care about getting into a deep squat until about 4 years ago, when I started lifting. I would say it's taken me 2 or 3 years to be able to do it comfortably.
It's a very natural and stable position to be in. Yesterday, I saw my almost one year old, who cannot walk, just falling into the squat position.
This is the most vexing part of the sport of weightlifting. The strength comes quickly, but the mobility to squat deep with an upright torso comes very very slowly. That's why there are about a million articles and forum posts with titles just like this one.
I'm white, 20yo, and squat a lot. Strange though this might sound, I actually squat for hours on end at the computer. For me it's more comfortable than sitting. Also I'm 6'2", so long legs. Ya, I know I'm weird. :)
I'm 30, relatively tall Californian male. I've done the Asian squat ever since I read about this distinction 10 years ago. Before that I always squatted the Western way even though i had good flexibility from sports & martial arts
I can only squat on my toes but if I do it for any length of time the blood goes out of my head when I stand up and I fell faint for a moment
That may just be low blood pressure. A friend of mine has to take medication because even standing quickly causes him to feint.
Could be, better than high blood pressure if it is, I suppose
Uhm. People squat with their feet flat on the ground? I can only do them standing on my toes...
Both are natural for me. Squatting while standing on toes is quickly tiring though.
Wow, I never realized I squatted differently. Time to ask a bunch of people to squat on Monday
Indian. Can't do it.
I am Indian, and I've never been able to do it. And it has caused me immense pain through the years :(