Is there a word for these types of articles that roughly describe why something works so well? I especially like the acknowledgement of how it could all go wrong and the limitations of the format. Is this considered "critcism" in the classic sense or is it something else? I want more of this compassionate/curious/generous/careful engagement, but don't know how to search for it.
I thought the end, where Nussbaum compared the British version to the American version, was especially insightful:
Effortlessness like this takes craft. Drunkenness is not enough, which we know for certain, since the experiment has been tried across the Atlantic. The British “Drunk History”—which you can catch in clips on YouTube—is terrible. It’s depressing. It’s not funny, but that’s not really the problem... No one responds. It’s hard to create chemistry with Big Brother.
I love Drunk History for all the reasons she articulated. I've never watched the British version. She has persuaded me not to waste my time.
Her appreciation of Drunk History reminds me of a line from Hardy's Tess of the D'Urbervilles:
And it was the touch of the imperfect upon the would-be perfect that gave the sweetness, because it was that which gave the humanity.
It's a quality Nussbaum seems especially atuned to in her reviews. The show High Maintenance shares a similar tenderness for the human condition, "sweet, filthy, and forgiving". It was her review of the show, years ago when it was still a web series, which turned me on to it.
As humans, sometimes we need humanity. Even Steve Jobs recognized it:
I disagree with her personally. If you expect the british version to be like the American, you'll be sorely disappointed.
To me, the American version reminds me of everything I hate about drunk people in a bar - overly loud, boisterous people trying to play up their drunken state thinking it is cool to do - while telling me a story. Badly.
The British version reminds me of someone telling me a story. They know about the story, but don't remember the details, and the drunkeness is getting in the way. The basic description is correct: no host. To me, it is more intimate and less "sober person making fun of the drunk in the room" because of the setup.
I can't stand many drunk people when I'm sober - and perhaps I'd enjoy the American version better if I were drunk. It could also be that the American version features a different sort of drunk - or more like people that are acting drunk because of societal expectations. The humor is also different between the two nations: I've preferred british humor for years, well before I moved to Europe from the US. Sometimes it is quite hilariously depressing, sure, but that is part of the charm.
I'll also add that the stigma against drinking alone doesn't seem to be the same as it is in the US. For whatever reason, someone drinking alone in the US basically means you are an alcoholic, not that you are too poor to go to bars, that you work weird hours, or that you have few friends to drink with but occasionally would like a drink. Drink alone once a week means alcoholism, getting smashed with friends means you are social. If you have this sort of bias, seeing someone drink alone (when they obviously aren't - camera crew and all) is probably going to be more depressing.
>To me, the American version reminds me of everything I hate about drunk people in a bar - overly loud, boisterous people trying to play up their drunken state thinking it is cool to do - while telling me a story. Badly.
> The British version reminds me of someone telling me a story. They know about the story, but don't remember the details, and the drunkeness is getting in the way. The basic description is correct: no host. To me, it is more intimate and less "sober person making fun of the drunk in the room" because of the setup.
Huh, I didn't even know there was a British version, but having just checked out a random few (ARTHUR Conan Doyle, Napoleon), it seems like they ham up the drunken silliness a LOT more than the American ones I've seen.
I'm going on a slightly controversial limb here, but this comes from a place of dear love so please bear with me: it is my experience that the U.K. (or perhaps just England) is woefully outclassed by Americans when it comes to podcasts, or even radio in general. I have been looking for an entertaining British podcast for the last two years, and I am coming up depressingly empty handed.
The only half-redeeming British radio show that I could find was My Dad Wrote A Porno, but after half a season, the novelty wore off and that too is now but a note in the history books. I have been asking around (for two years!) for any other good tips. Alas: nothing I can bear to listen to for more than 1 episode.
Meanwhile, in the Americas, we have Planet Money, Serial, This American Life, Hidden Brain, SYSK, Freakonomics, Hardcore History, Fresh Air (!), The Moth, etc etc forever etc. These are all absolute smash hits in their own right. Americans "get" it.
It kills me. Why?? I don't know if it is the dreary of the English accent, or just this dry demeanour which perhaps looks engaging with visual feedback, but just sounds completely vapid over sound only..? What is the secret to good podcasting?
Why is it that America has Planet Money, and the UK has Moneybox? They are probably roughly targeting the same audience, but one is a riveting listen whose only fault is they don't release more, and the other, well.. the other is Moneybox. I applaud their effort, but it's Just Not There.
Now, this will undoubtedly trigger bad feelings: I'm sorry. Just to be clear: I don't mean that Americans are better than Brits. I am neither, so I have no stake in this fight. This is just an outsider's view. I love radio, I love the format, and I love both Brits and Americans, and I wish everyone did well at everything. And of course, this is my personal opinion. On the other hand: this is a pretty stark pattern, and I am anything but surprised it showed up in Drunk History just the same. And I would love to hear others' opinions on this, because it's frustrating me to no end.
I’m a Brit and (possibly causally, possibly not) tend to find US radio/podcasts and TV programming too emotional and melodramatic and much prefer Brit ones.
I’m offering this only in the spirit of debate - each to their own of course.
Just in case you haven’t tried them, my personal favourites have to be some of the many from the BBC. Pretty sure they’re available internationally and being the BBC they’re all ad-free:
- More Or Less (a lighthearted but gentle Freakonimics-style critique of numbers and statistics in the news)
- The Bottom Line (debates from the world of business) with the superb Evan Davis
- The News Quiz (panel show style comedy - might need an appreciation of Brit humour). Great for the commute home after a tough day.
- From Our Own Correspondent (super informative non-mainstream news from the corners of the Earth. Has a tendency to be almost suicidally depressing at times yet still somehow fascinating).
- In Our Time (an in-depth discussion of an intellectual topic which can be anything from Shakespeare to the Mexican-American War to Neutron Stars. Huge back-catalogue of episodes.)
- The Curious Cases of Rutherford and Fry (lighthearted science show about anything and everything - great presenting team).
There’s a ton of others but they get more UK focussed and perhaps a little dry (Law in Action falls under this category perhaps but is still in my list).
It’s quite possible these are all ones you’ve tried and found not to be to your taste. If not then I’d suggest they’re worth trying.
Fully agree with your take. I find a lot of US podcasts and programming much too formulaic and predictable, with presenters far too likely to fill in with endless "OMG, wow this is totally awesome" and other worthless hype when talking of the deeply mundane and average. Makes it impossible to spot when something is rare or actually worthy of a little awe.
Occasionally I find them unlistenable thanks to their alternative to the "dreary of the English accent" turning into accent as an offensive weapon. Some manage to make a New York accent sound lyrical and poetic. Applies to some Audible narrators too sadly.
I do enjoy some, Mythbusters for instance.
There's a few more that are worth checking out. Many Radio 4 programmes are available to download and as podcasts.
+ 50 Things (that made the Modern Economy). Excellent look at some surprising things that have made a disproportionate difference. Presented by Tim Harford (The Undercover Economist). He's also the presenter of More or Less.
+ The Infinite Monkey Cage. Superb Science and Comedy with Robin Ince and Brian Cox who make a surprisingly good double act.
+ Fry's English Delight. Stephen Fry exploring the English language. Deeply fascinating as most things from Fry are.
+ I'm Sorry I Haven't a Clue for weekly silliness.
+ Reith Lectures. Often thought provoking, sometimes a bit too "heavy".
Not to forget no end of excellent comedies - Radio 4 being the original source of Hitchhiker's after all (the books came later).
A Good Read is excellent too. It feels so natural that you forget how hard it must be to produce a consistent 30 minutes of interesting discussion, with one host and two new guests every week. It doesn't feel scripted or heavily edited but it must be, because there are so few stumbles or dead ends or awkward moments. To me it hits a sweet spot between professional polish (which is perhaps one of the qualities nothrabannosir likes in American shows) and sincerity and spontanaeity (which often comes at the cost of a show being rough around the edges).
Adding to Tomalpha’s list (I especially endorse The News Quiz, and the new host Miles Jupp is hysterical)
I’d add Victoria Coren-Mitchell’s run of ‘Heresy’,
‘Cabin Pressure’ (John Finnemore is a genius, and Cumberbatch does a great comedic turn),
‘It’s Not What You Know’ (more Miles Jupp excellence),
‘The Unbelievable Truth’ (Many seasons of comedic brilliance hosted by David Mitchell),
and to a somewhat lesser extent ‘The Rest Is History’ hosted by Frank Skinner, ‘Fags, Mags and Bags’ (helps to actually have spent some real time in the UK to appreciate), and for long car journeys ‘Just A Minute’ can be fun.
Perhaps you just feel more in tune listening to people with whom you have greater shared experience? I often listen to radio comedy and think "This would be incredibly dull if you didn't follow all the cultural references".
If you include radio programmes in the definition of podcast (and nowadays there is no real sensible distinction) then the BBC makes a huge number of interesting and entertaining radio shows.
Your comparison of Planet Money to Moneybox is really apples to oranges. Planet money is factual entertainment about interesting stories with an economic spin: "Hey, I'm gonna make my own vodka, let's learn about price discrimination." Planet money is about consumer finances: pensions, investments, tax exemptions. I can't think of a more boring topic than listening to the ins and outs of another country's tax code.
Yes, this definitely counts as criticism! I think the best critics are the ones who can tell you specifically how and why something is great. As an example, James Wood's book "How Fiction Works" is basically a compendium of paragraphs and sentences Wood thinks are wonderful, which he cracks open to inspect and explain. It's really impressive whenever a critic can pull this off; I often struggle to get beyond "OMG [THING X] IS GREAT."
Watching him flop around the floor, saying "I can't do this, I'm too drunk!" and puke in a toilet while telling that was unenjoyable to watch, for me.
Duncan is so much better on his own podcast or on Joe Rogan Experience talking about things than this. He normally speaks with a lot more enthusiasm and energy, and that's more entertaining.
Is there a word for these types of articles that roughly describe why something works so well? I especially like the acknowledgement of how it could all go wrong and the limitations of the format. Is this considered "critcism" in the classic sense or is it something else? I want more of this compassionate/curious/generous/careful engagement, but don't know how to search for it.
I thought the end, where Nussbaum compared the British version to the American version, was especially insightful:
Effortlessness like this takes craft. Drunkenness is not enough, which we know for certain, since the experiment has been tried across the Atlantic. The British “Drunk History”—which you can catch in clips on YouTube—is terrible. It’s depressing. It’s not funny, but that’s not really the problem... No one responds. It’s hard to create chemistry with Big Brother.
I love Drunk History for all the reasons she articulated. I've never watched the British version. She has persuaded me not to waste my time.
Her appreciation of Drunk History reminds me of a line from Hardy's Tess of the D'Urbervilles:
And it was the touch of the imperfect upon the would-be perfect that gave the sweetness, because it was that which gave the humanity.
It's a quality Nussbaum seems especially atuned to in her reviews. The show High Maintenance shares a similar tenderness for the human condition, "sweet, filthy, and forgiving". It was her review of the show, years ago when it was still a web series, which turned me on to it.
As humans, sometimes we need humanity. Even Steve Jobs recognized it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJWWtV1w5fw
I disagree with her personally. If you expect the british version to be like the American, you'll be sorely disappointed.
To me, the American version reminds me of everything I hate about drunk people in a bar - overly loud, boisterous people trying to play up their drunken state thinking it is cool to do - while telling me a story. Badly.
The British version reminds me of someone telling me a story. They know about the story, but don't remember the details, and the drunkeness is getting in the way. The basic description is correct: no host. To me, it is more intimate and less "sober person making fun of the drunk in the room" because of the setup.
I can't stand many drunk people when I'm sober - and perhaps I'd enjoy the American version better if I were drunk. It could also be that the American version features a different sort of drunk - or more like people that are acting drunk because of societal expectations. The humor is also different between the two nations: I've preferred british humor for years, well before I moved to Europe from the US. Sometimes it is quite hilariously depressing, sure, but that is part of the charm.
I'll also add that the stigma against drinking alone doesn't seem to be the same as it is in the US. For whatever reason, someone drinking alone in the US basically means you are an alcoholic, not that you are too poor to go to bars, that you work weird hours, or that you have few friends to drink with but occasionally would like a drink. Drink alone once a week means alcoholism, getting smashed with friends means you are social. If you have this sort of bias, seeing someone drink alone (when they obviously aren't - camera crew and all) is probably going to be more depressing.
>To me, the American version reminds me of everything I hate about drunk people in a bar - overly loud, boisterous people trying to play up their drunken state thinking it is cool to do - while telling me a story. Badly.
> The British version reminds me of someone telling me a story. They know about the story, but don't remember the details, and the drunkeness is getting in the way. The basic description is correct: no host. To me, it is more intimate and less "sober person making fun of the drunk in the room" because of the setup.
Huh, I didn't even know there was a British version, but having just checked out a random few (ARTHUR Conan Doyle, Napoleon), it seems like they ham up the drunken silliness a LOT more than the American ones I've seen.
I'm going on a slightly controversial limb here, but this comes from a place of dear love so please bear with me: it is my experience that the U.K. (or perhaps just England) is woefully outclassed by Americans when it comes to podcasts, or even radio in general. I have been looking for an entertaining British podcast for the last two years, and I am coming up depressingly empty handed.
The only half-redeeming British radio show that I could find was My Dad Wrote A Porno, but after half a season, the novelty wore off and that too is now but a note in the history books. I have been asking around (for two years!) for any other good tips. Alas: nothing I can bear to listen to for more than 1 episode.
Meanwhile, in the Americas, we have Planet Money, Serial, This American Life, Hidden Brain, SYSK, Freakonomics, Hardcore History, Fresh Air (!), The Moth, etc etc forever etc. These are all absolute smash hits in their own right. Americans "get" it.
It kills me. Why?? I don't know if it is the dreary of the English accent, or just this dry demeanour which perhaps looks engaging with visual feedback, but just sounds completely vapid over sound only..? What is the secret to good podcasting?
Why is it that America has Planet Money, and the UK has Moneybox? They are probably roughly targeting the same audience, but one is a riveting listen whose only fault is they don't release more, and the other, well.. the other is Moneybox. I applaud their effort, but it's Just Not There.
Now, this will undoubtedly trigger bad feelings: I'm sorry. Just to be clear: I don't mean that Americans are better than Brits. I am neither, so I have no stake in this fight. This is just an outsider's view. I love radio, I love the format, and I love both Brits and Americans, and I wish everyone did well at everything. And of course, this is my personal opinion. On the other hand: this is a pretty stark pattern, and I am anything but surprised it showed up in Drunk History just the same. And I would love to hear others' opinions on this, because it's frustrating me to no end.
I’m a Brit and (possibly causally, possibly not) tend to find US radio/podcasts and TV programming too emotional and melodramatic and much prefer Brit ones.
I’m offering this only in the spirit of debate - each to their own of course.
Just in case you haven’t tried them, my personal favourites have to be some of the many from the BBC. Pretty sure they’re available internationally and being the BBC they’re all ad-free:
- More Or Less (a lighthearted but gentle Freakonimics-style critique of numbers and statistics in the news)
- The Bottom Line (debates from the world of business) with the superb Evan Davis
- The News Quiz (panel show style comedy - might need an appreciation of Brit humour). Great for the commute home after a tough day.
- From Our Own Correspondent (super informative non-mainstream news from the corners of the Earth. Has a tendency to be almost suicidally depressing at times yet still somehow fascinating).
- In Our Time (an in-depth discussion of an intellectual topic which can be anything from Shakespeare to the Mexican-American War to Neutron Stars. Huge back-catalogue of episodes.)
- The Curious Cases of Rutherford and Fry (lighthearted science show about anything and everything - great presenting team).
There’s a ton of others but they get more UK focussed and perhaps a little dry (Law in Action falls under this category perhaps but is still in my list).
It’s quite possible these are all ones you’ve tried and found not to be to your taste. If not then I’d suggest they’re worth trying.
Fully agree with your take. I find a lot of US podcasts and programming much too formulaic and predictable, with presenters far too likely to fill in with endless "OMG, wow this is totally awesome" and other worthless hype when talking of the deeply mundane and average. Makes it impossible to spot when something is rare or actually worthy of a little awe.
Occasionally I find them unlistenable thanks to their alternative to the "dreary of the English accent" turning into accent as an offensive weapon. Some manage to make a New York accent sound lyrical and poetic. Applies to some Audible narrators too sadly.
I do enjoy some, Mythbusters for instance.
There's a few more that are worth checking out. Many Radio 4 programmes are available to download and as podcasts.
+ 50 Things (that made the Modern Economy). Excellent look at some surprising things that have made a disproportionate difference. Presented by Tim Harford (The Undercover Economist). He's also the presenter of More or Less.
+ The Infinite Monkey Cage. Superb Science and Comedy with Robin Ince and Brian Cox who make a surprisingly good double act.
+ Fry's English Delight. Stephen Fry exploring the English language. Deeply fascinating as most things from Fry are.
+ I'm Sorry I Haven't a Clue for weekly silliness.
+ Reith Lectures. Often thought provoking, sometimes a bit too "heavy".
Not to forget no end of excellent comedies - Radio 4 being the original source of Hitchhiker's after all (the books came later).
A Good Read is excellent too. It feels so natural that you forget how hard it must be to produce a consistent 30 minutes of interesting discussion, with one host and two new guests every week. It doesn't feel scripted or heavily edited but it must be, because there are so few stumbles or dead ends or awkward moments. To me it hits a sweet spot between professional polish (which is perhaps one of the qualities nothrabannosir likes in American shows) and sincerity and spontanaeity (which often comes at the cost of a show being rough around the edges).
Adding to Tomalpha’s list (I especially endorse The News Quiz, and the new host Miles Jupp is hysterical)
I’d add Victoria Coren-Mitchell’s run of ‘Heresy’,
‘Cabin Pressure’ (John Finnemore is a genius, and Cumberbatch does a great comedic turn),
‘It’s Not What You Know’ (more Miles Jupp excellence),
‘The Unbelievable Truth’ (Many seasons of comedic brilliance hosted by David Mitchell),
and to a somewhat lesser extent ‘The Rest Is History’ hosted by Frank Skinner, ‘Fags, Mags and Bags’ (helps to actually have spent some real time in the UK to appreciate), and for long car journeys ‘Just A Minute’ can be fun.
Perhaps you just feel more in tune listening to people with whom you have greater shared experience? I often listen to radio comedy and think "This would be incredibly dull if you didn't follow all the cultural references".
If you include radio programmes in the definition of podcast (and nowadays there is no real sensible distinction) then the BBC makes a huge number of interesting and entertaining radio shows.
Your comparison of Planet Money to Moneybox is really apples to oranges. Planet money is factual entertainment about interesting stories with an economic spin: "Hey, I'm gonna make my own vodka, let's learn about price discrimination." Planet money is about consumer finances: pensions, investments, tax exemptions. I can't think of a more boring topic than listening to the ins and outs of another country's tax code.
As a Brit, I find I much prefer the English version over the American. The American version is just so loud and over the top.
The thing you have to remember about the UK version is that most of the guests are stand-up comedians, so that's the comedy style they go for.
Yes, this definitely counts as criticism! I think the best critics are the ones who can tell you specifically how and why something is great. As an example, James Wood's book "How Fiction Works" is basically a compendium of paragraphs and sentences Wood thinks are wonderful, which he cracks open to inspect and explain. It's really impressive whenever a critic can pull this off; I often struggle to get beyond "OMG [THING X] IS GREAT."
Yep, it's criticism! The New Yorker has articles like this on TV, movies, and books each week.
Deconstruction in not the classical sense?
I didn't realize we needed a word for this until just now
Drunk history worked exactly twice for me: Fredrick Douglas, and the Night Before Christmas. Every other episode I watched after that was so so.
I agree, although it was a different episode.
Duncan trussel's Tesla episode was masterfully done:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gOR91oentQ
the other few episodes I bothered with didn't do it for me.
Watching him flop around the floor, saying "I can't do this, I'm too drunk!" and puke in a toilet while telling that was unenjoyable to watch, for me.
Duncan is so much better on his own podcast or on Joe Rogan Experience talking about things than this. He normally speaks with a lot more enthusiasm and energy, and that's more entertaining.
I'm a big fan of Frederick Douglass. Makes me wonder if there are any videos online of the episode in question.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_Douglass
My Bondage and My Freedom is one of the few assigned reading books I really enjoyed.
Pretty sure its on YouTube
Thanks. I'll look around at some point, maybe later today.
The episode mentioned at the start of the article is "Game Changers". It's season 5, episode 3.
Am I the only one who can tell they're not really drunk?